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macrob77

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Hi.
My first post here. I'm looking for users opinions about Crown Cryo tools. Is the edge last actually longer than standard HSS steel?
At the moment I'm using Record Power HSS tools. I really like them but I have to sharpen them very often. Mostly I'm turning acrylics. I've been thinking about carbide tools but I like traditional tools better.

Thanks.
Maciek
 

Duncan A

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Hi Maciek
I've some Crown cryo tools and I think they probably do hold edge longer than standard HSS - but not massively so in my opinion. The M42 tools on the other hand, do seem to last noticeably longer, and I feel that they actually sharpen better than the cryo tools as well - although I can't quantify that.
Even "standard" HSS, though, does vary. Although I don't know the various standards, I suspect that the old fashioned idea of "quality" steel-making still holds true!
Duncan
 

CHJ

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Duncan A":3qis88b0 said:
…...
Even "standard" HSS, though, does vary. Although I don't know the various standards, I suspect that the old fashioned idea of "quality" steel-making still holds true!
Duncan
Some time ago I was asked to review a water cooled tool grinder with fine stone in relation to turning tools.

Although I can't define any difference in my HSS gouges, the wear rate of the cutting edge being dependant on wood species, actual 'in use' time etc. between the various forms being a much more significant influence in my experience.
I was surprised to find that the various brands did show a significant difference in the speed of metal removal, so there must be a difference in their hardness, albeit not discernible when using standard white oxide dry wheel.
did reveal an interesting fact, the Hamlet tools were a lot harder than the others and consequently took longer to profile, the Crown gouge was the softest of any, none of which was obvious on my dry grinder
This was some years ago now & I fully expect that replacement tools from any of the manufactures/retailers could show finite hardness differences because of source material, batch heat treatments etc. across individual ranges as much as individual retailers.
 

Mark Hancock

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CHJ":26ia9ni5 said:
Duncan A":26ia9ni5 said:
…...
Even "standard" HSS, though, does vary. Although I don't know the various standards, I suspect that the old fashioned idea of "quality" steel-making still holds true!
Duncan
Some time ago I was asked to review a water cooled tool grinder with fine stone in relation to turning tools.

Although I can't define any difference in my HSS gouges, the wear rate of the cutting edge being dependant on wood species, actual 'in use' time etc. between the various forms being a much more significant influence in my experience.
I was surprised to find that the various brands did show a significant difference in the speed of metal removal, so there must be a difference in their hardness, albeit not discernible when using standard white oxide dry wheel.
did reveal an interesting fact, the Hamlet tools were a lot harder than the others and consequently took longer to profile, the Crown gouge was the softest of any, none of which was obvious on my dry grinder
This was some years ago now & I fully expect that replacement tools from any of the manufactures/retailers could show finite hardness differences because of source material, batch heat treatments etc. across individual ranges as much as individual retailers.
I re profile a lot of student's gouges, originally on a white wheel and now on CBN, and have noticed a marked difference between the different makes with Hamlet and Henry Taylor being the harder steel taking longer to profile.
 

CHJ

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Mark Hancock":20hf2ej7 said:
...
I re profile a lot of student's gouges, originally on a white wheel and now on CBN, and have noticed a marked difference between the different makes with Hamlet and Henry Taylor being the harder steel taking longer to profile.
It's good to know it was not my imagination and you have experienced a similar difference Mark.
Afraid my wood stocks, and at times copious amounts of Cascamite in the mix, my ineptitude in using the tools to their best performance profile masks the difference in use.
 

Mark Hancock

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By coincidence I had a student yesterday who worked with creating alloys for the aerospace industry. His take on the differences in the steel hardness from various tool suppliers was that it was probably down to the chemistry and heat treatment process. When different elements like carbon are added the amount used generally falls within a range rather than a specific exact amount. That along with the heat treatment would account for the differences in his opinion.
 

CHJ

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Certainly does Mark, it applies to all alloys, the more critical the end use the smaller the tolerance accepted in the specification.

When heat treating steels and aluminium alloys in finished products, even using aircraft quality stock the finished items always had to be batch tested at least, to ensure we were meeting the design specification, not only hardness but crystalline growth structure.

I doubt that HSS destined for wood lathe tools is considered to be too critical in its finished characteristics.

Even after the initial alloy mix the possible variations in characteristics that can be induced whilst forming have first to be annulled if at all possible and then appropriate hardening and tempering to achieve maximum strength, toughness or hardness as required.

Then of course there are all the variables that apply to the heat treatment ovens used and ability to meet the treatment temperature curves over time, and the all too critical quenching times and temperature curves.

Dependant on the material, contact with air, can be critical and heat treatment needs doing in a vacuum, and using Nitrogen or Argon as the quenching or isolation media, can be very costly.
In my last workshop we had 5 ovens ranging from 50KW to 1MW, even monitoring the performance printout charts to see if the ovens met the programmed treatment and inert gas flow curves kept someone busy several hours a week before even considering the NDT testing of the finished components..
 

Bodgers

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Duncan A":3377e8dr said:
Hi Maciek
I've some Crown cryo tools and I think they probably do hold edge longer than standard HSS - but not massively so in my opinion. The M42 tools on the other hand, do seem to last noticeably longer, and I feel that they actually sharpen better than the cryo tools as well - although I can't quantify that.
Even "standard" HSS, though, does vary. Although I don't know the various standards, I suspect that the old fashioned idea of "quality" steel-making still holds true!
Duncan
The Crown Cryo tools are Cryogenically treated M42.



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macrob77

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Great read guys. I've ended up ordering Crown M42 Razor Edge half inch spindle gouge for a start. We'll see how it goes. My Record Power ones definitely are getting dull too quickly when turning acrylics.
 

Hornbeam

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If you have any problems, I have found the guys at Crown really helpful. I had some issues with their hollowing tools and they couldnt have been more helpful.
ian
 

macrob77

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Came in Today morning. Two days from UK to Ireland. Well done Axminster :D

Haven't use it yet. Overall impression, wow. Handles are longer and more comfortable to hold than my old Record Power chisels.

Too bad that I can't post pictures
 

CHJ

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macrob77":t5s0j590 said:
I'm getting error message that I don't have a permission to post links.
That was because you can't post links until you have made three forum posts, there is no posts restriction on uploading images as attachments.

Read the Image posting link in previous post and at the top of the turning section listing.
 

macrob77

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Regrinding to fingernail profile took a lot more time than my Record gouges. The steel is a lot harder. Balance of the tool is completely different because of the longer shank. I must use to this. Overall I'm happy for now. We'll see if the edge will really last longer.
 

macrob77

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Okay, I've been away for a week and came back yesterday. Today I was able to play with this gouge for a bit. Wow, just wow. It cuts like razor indeed. Wonderful shear scraping.
 
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