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Pedronicus

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However try as I might, I couldn’t even get him struck off / suspended or his certificate revoked. I’ve come to the view that the controlling boddies really don’t care about compliance, just about the annual fee. Very jaundiced I know.
Similar in the gas world. Only the customer can complain about an illegal installer (registered members can't) which they invariably won't because they paid a "guy down the pub cash" or they are afraid of retributions. Beggars belief! :rolleyes:
 

Ozi

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Bring back trading standards. With rental properties I always pay for a professional, most are OK some beggar belief and as Pedronicus says you have little or no comeback.
 

John Brown

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Remember too, a non contact volt stick is a dangerous test tool. All it tells you is that voltage may be present. It absolutely doesn't tell you that there isn't any.
I know. Neon screwdrivers are likewise unreliable.
That's why I alway carry a few pairs of frog's legs around with me for checking this new-fangled galvanic energy.
 

Spectric

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just about the annual fee.
That is the sad thing about the requirements in the Uk, Corgi and I dare say the replacement certification "Gas Safe" are just about the annual fee and BS7671 for electrical is not legally binding, just best practice yet if you ignore without sound justification then it is used to prosecute you. It got worse when property developers did not like paying the rates for electrical engineers who had spent time getting fully qualified and a new category of domestic installer appeared which was nothing more than a fast track approach teaching just enough to wire a house. In some countries like Germany things are much tighter and you need to have the right paperwork to do many things, @MikeK can shed further light on this. One problem with so many trades is that once qualified then as time passes they can become outdated unless they make the effort to get further training and I have met electricians who honestly thought that the regs applied to all installation work they undertake without realising that you do retrofit the newer standards to older installations unless you are working on that system but then the unscrupulous see it as a way of making extra money. Bad side to all of this is the mistrust it causes and everyone gets the same brush!
 

Spectric

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John Brown

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Another safety concern, why would you not prove dead 100% knowing it is you who could get electrocuted. The best testers around are the ones that come with there own proving unit that verifies the actual tester is working.

Both the Martindale VT12/PD-S Voltage Indicator and Proving Unit Kit and Fluke do good systems.Martindale VT12/PD-S Voltage Indicator and Proving Unit Kit
Ummmm. How would you sharpen those probes?
 

deema

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@MikeJhn that makes me smile! In the UK we have developed and fallen into the trap of a ridiculous situation where as a young pup, you can toddle off for a few weeks and pass an exam and hay presto wire up / sign off low voltage domestic installations. However a graduate electrical and electronics engineer cannot! You have to be a graduate Electrical and Electronics Engineer who has the breadth and depth of experience and knowledge to become a Chartered Engineer to sign off the certificates of compliance for the test equipment used for domestic installations……but still you cannot sign off the actual installation! Absolute madness!!
 

MikeJhn

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Quite so, but that young pup even if they do pass the exam, is still not a qualified electrician, you can obtain all the degrees in the world and still not be able to sign off an EICR or a Part P application for that you need to be part of a Scam/Scheme witch means absolutely nothing as they are invented organisation and not officially sanctioned by Royal Commission or the Secretary of State, until such time as a professional qualification is available for an electrician we will have Joe down the pub carrying out dodgy domestic installs at half the market value and putting a signature to the documentation, if any exists that is.
 

Spectric

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This has been such a contentious issue and is just how ridiculous the system has become, time served electricians with years of experience having to PAY to obtain some bit of paper that says they can now sign a certificate. I have seen what a domestic installer is capable of and they would never get employed in the industrial sector, but then lets not forget other sectors. A cab driver employed to fit pipes into newbuilds, shown the ropes and off they go and a real blinder was overhearing a guy asking for Hepo push fit in yellow because they were for gas! In one of the trade mags I get there is a section for people to send in their horror finds, and that is really not good when you see what someone has done that they must have believed was acceptable but is totally unsafe.

Yes we need at least the equivalent of gas safe for the electrical trade but I don't think there is any support for such a move otherwise Joe down the pub would not be able to nip into somewhere and just buy a new consumer unit or protective devices.
 

HOJ

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Yes we need at least the equivalent of gas safe for the electrical trade but I don't think there is any support for such a move otherwise Joe down the pub would not be able to nip into somewhere and just buy a new consumer unit or protective devices.
I don't usually get involved in discussions such as these, but that's been an argument I've been having for years, regularly been in a wholesalers behind a "Joe" asking the staff to tell him what he will need to do the job.

I was full NICEIC then went down to domestic installer, didn't do much electrical work in one year, when the time came for the annual review "inspector" said he'd let me do a few test on my own house wiring just to prove I could, told the "recently qualified lad" to stuff it.

On one of my current projects, a SIPS build, the wiring looks a shambles, metal strapping (18th edition) and draping cables everywhere (by contractors not me!)
 

MikeJhn

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The electrical trade in the UK is a real shambles, no professional qualifications required, but still some electricians call themselves professionals, whilst the likes of the SCAM providers exist this will persist, what is needed is a mass resignation from all the scam providers, but it will never happen, I am just grateful that I am retired, spent my last working years in domestic works in France where the legislation is just that legislation, anything beyond the incoming supply is the responsibility of the home owner, no such thing as Part P or EICR, only checks made are on new installations and a cursory check if the property is being sold.
 

MikeJhn

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In a joke recently it was about the Scheme providers.

What we need is a consolidation of all the Schemes to provide a one and for all guidance, at the moment we have three or four, all agreed and we now have five.
 

Lard

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…..and there was me thinking this was about changing a shower pull switch….

…..just change it!
 

guineafowl21

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Just my two penny worth, there is no such thing as a qualified electrician.
This is true, according to John Ward, who’s a member of the e5 electrical legislation group. There’s a loose reference to ‘competence’ but in essence, anyone can perform electrical work and, by extension, sign certificates.
@MikeJhn that makes me smile! In the UK we have developed and fallen into the trap of a ridiculous situation where as a young pup, you can toddle off for a few weeks and pass an exam and hay presto wire up / sign off low voltage domestic installations. However a graduate electrical and electronics engineer cannot! You have to be a graduate Electrical and Electronics Engineer who has the breadth and depth of experience and knowledge to become a Chartered Engineer to sign off the certificates of compliance for the test equipment used for domestic installations……but still you cannot sign off the actual installation! Absolute madness!!
So, by my definitions above, when you say you cannot sign off installations, what is preventing you? There is no box to enter your unique electrician register number.

Someone non-mechanical was watching me fit new brake pads to the car, and commented that he was surprised that anyone but a qualified mechanic is allowed to do so. I do hope that idea doesn’t catch on.
 

MikeJhn

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Someone non-mechanical was watching me fit new brake pads to the car, and commented that he was surprised that anyone but a qualified mechanic is allowed to do so. I do hope that idea doesn’t catch on.
Perpetuated by the trade as in Qualified Electrician, no such thing as a Qualified Mechanic, miss-conception fed to the public.
 

guineafowl21

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Perpetuated by the trade as in Qualified Electrician, no such thing as a Qualified Mechanic, miss-conception fed to the public.
And, by analogy, a similar situation in that anyone can freely buy brake pads and other critical parts.

There is the ‘argument from insurance’, where if you had an accident but couldn’t produce a garage receipt for the brake work done, they could refuse payout, but thankfully this doesn’t seem to happen.
 

Terry - Somerset

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I have some real doubts about whether these "qualified person" schemes are worthwhile:
  • those who take safety seriously will do a generally competent DIY job
  • those less inclined to safety standards are similarly likely to ignore regulations anyway
I am certain that scenarios can be created which are beyond the understanding of a normally competent DIYer (as I regard myself) - possibly related to poor earths, shared neutrals, inappropriately sized or routed cables etc.

However if regulations are created to limit injury, death and collateral damage (fire etc), they seem a sledgehammer/walnut solution. Simple alternatives would give far greater public benefit - eg: cycle lanes and mandated helmet wearing, fixing uneven pavements, swimming lessons for all kids.

Even a simple advertising and education campaign alerting the public to the electrical risks unrelated to wiring may have more impact - damaged appliance cables, damaged sockets and plug, wire trip hazards, overloaded sockets, etc.

I worked in a large (1200 staff) office. Routinely someone came round to do PAT testing. I asked how many faulty appliances had been detected over the last few years - none! Time and money being spent reducing an almost non-existent risk to almost zero - daft.
 

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