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Cedar or Deal

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Anonymous

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I wonder if anyone can help me with this. I have some plans for a bee hive, and they suggest using either Cedar or 'Deal'. Can someone let me know what it is , is it treated softwood?
Many thanks
Chris Glass
 

Aragorn

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Hi Chris
Deal is just an old fashioned word for regular fir or pine. As far as I know it doesn't imply that it is treated.
I'd have thought cedar would have a better life outside. More expensive though.
 
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Anonymous

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Thank you Aragon,
As a matter of interest are there any good sites of timber suppliers that provide prices for differnt types of sawn wood?
Regards
 

Alf

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Now I hope I get this right...

Technically deal refers to one of the particular sizes of timber that were imported into this country. If you think about it, prior to these imports, all the timber was home-grown (often the carpenter or whoever in rural areas would be familiar with the tree when it was still growing, and even knew where the nails were buried...) so when the new fangled imported stuff came in and the timber yard referred to it as "deal", how were the workers to know that wasn't a particular type of wood? :roll: Well that's my theory anyway. :wink: The name stuck and came to refer to pine simply because that was how it tended to be sold. Anyway, for interest, the market sizes of timber were:

Balk 12"x12"-18"x18"
Whole timbers 9"x9"-15"x15"
Half timbers 9"x4.5"-18"x9"
Scantling 6"x4"-12"x12"
Quartering 2"x2"-6"x6"
Planks 11"-18" wide & 3"-6" thick
Deals 9" wide & 2"-4.5" thick
Battens 4.5"-7" wide & 3/4"-3" thick
Strips and Laths 4"-4.5" wide & 1/2"-1.5" thick

(Sorry about confusing fractions and decimals, but it seemed to be the clearest way)

So next time SWMBO tells you to "put down that plank and come in to tea", you can explain to her that actually it's not large enough to be a plank, but more like a batten. That should be popular... :lol:

Cheers, Alf
 

DaveL

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Alf":aezpkce0 said:
So next time SWMBO tells you to "put down that plank and come in to tea", you can explain to her that actually it's not large enough to be a plank, but more like a batten. That should be popular... :lol:
I can get into quite enough trouble with out you putting ideas into my head :oops:
 

Adam

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'Cor, thats timely, I have literally just come in from the workshop 5 minutes ago, having built a Bee Hive this weekend (National - for those interested). I bought mine as a flat pack, on Friday afternoon and it probably took a day in total, even with all the parts ready made. Instructions would have helped however! Western Red Cedar is the stuff you are looking for - not just "any softwood".

, is it treated softwood?
Definately not. Bees and preservatives don't mix. The only one approved for use with bees (and this is on the outside of the hive - is cuprinol. I'd have to look up which if you are interested.

You'll find deal (a.k.a. any softwood), "rots" a lot quicker, the Western Red Cedar, however it's cheaper. I'd avoid anything like outdoor plywood, as a friend used this on his hive and it rotted in about a season.

Are you desperate to make one from scratch for

A) the fun of making one yourself
B) cheapness

I found (and I've got all the kit, tablesaw, router, etc) that they really are quite difficult to make well. Very easy to make simpler, but remember, the brood space needs to be pretty exact, although you can get away with less precise dimensions in the supers. So, I reckon it would be very hard work without a table saw, and for strength most have finger or other joints on the sueprs/brood. Even with it flat packed it took me a considerable amount of time to assemble, although, I did go the extra distance to check everything for squareness etc.

If you are making it for fun, that's different, as you can incorporate all sort of "extras", handles, transport clips, different entrances, larger roof etc.

To make mine cheaper, I bought a Thornes "seconds" quality. These have some knots, and other imperfections, but given bees live in all sorts of dead trees and other spots like inside house walls, I figured a few knots didn't matter. I got mine from my local beeshop "Paynes", in hassocks, sussex, but other places may have them aslo.

Even if you make your hive, I'd go with purchased frames. These are so fiddly, and have such complicated profiles, I can't see they could ever be economic to make in terms of time. It's fiddly enough assembling them from the component parts! I used Hoffman self spacing frames so don't need any plastic/metal ends. I'd recommend this if you are building the whole thing from scratch.

Fire away any more questions....

Adam
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks Adam,
That was useful information. I suppose that I am looking to build a beehive for fun. I don't keep bees at the moment, although I have a second hand National hive. I should be getting a nucleus at the end of April.
I received some plans for a WBC and a modified National form BBKA for approx £1 each. However I will also use the existing National as a guide.
I take it that the measurements have to be exact for the inside of the hive, so the thickness of the timber specified within the plans does not have to be the same as long as the inside dimensions are exact to plan.

I would be interested if you know of any good suppliers of Cedar?

Many Thanks

Chris Glass
 

Adam

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I'd only say they need to be really exact on the inside of the brood box. The supers can be lashed up anyhow.

In general, you want to keep all the outside walls approx the same size, as if you move the hive, it's easier to screw/strap all the bits together.

National Bee supplies, Merrivale Road, Exeter Road Industrial Estate, Okehampton, Devon EX20 1UD

You can search for the people above, I'm sure they would supply "raw" cedar if you asked. Alternatively I'd ask people in your local bee keeping group/association. Alternativly give your regional Bee Inspector a ring,

Mr Ian Homer, 5 Malters Cottages, Litton Cheney, Dorchester, Dorset.
DT2 9AE Tel No: 01308 482161
e-mail: i.homer@csl.gov.uk
Southern Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Dorset, Hampshire, Isle of Wight, Northamptonshire, oxfordshire, Wiltshire

As he is likely to know good local suppliers or sources. The other place worth contacting is any local commercial bee farms. Best to do a search on yellow pages

www.eyp.co.uk

and type beekeeping and your area. They tend to maintain their own hives so might have some kicking about. I've not bought Cedar in plank form, so I can't suggest anywhere good I'm afraid.

Adam
 

Dewy

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Many years ago I wondered what wood 'deal' was and asked at the timber yard.
I was told that it could be any cheap softwood and when a price was agreed between the seller and buyer they shook hands and made a 'deal'
This was probably when ships started bringing baltic timber in and the crews only knew a little English.
It was a woodyard by the canal that I heard this from. The stretch of canal bank where the timber yards are is still known as Riga Warf many years after ships stopped coming so far inland. It's cheaper by road now.
 

Adam

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I've posted a few piccys of my hive (until my digital broke again, and had to be sent away for repair again :cry: ) in the gallery - it only shows partly completed sections, but it should give you an idea of how much machining is required. Thats why I decided to go for the flat pack option 8)

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/gallery/details.php?image_id=177



https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/gallery/details.php?image_id=176



https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/gallery/details.php?image_id=179



https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/gallery/details.php?image_id=178



https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/gallery/details.php?image_id=180



These are all in my projects page on the images section:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/gallery/cat ... ?cat_id=10
 

frank

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you dont get flat packs like that from MFI OR IKEA :D


frank
 
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Anonymous

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At my woodyard Deal is the white junk grade softwood that everyone buys. You need 19mm board and join it to get the width you need for your box. Use any wood you like but one of our beekeepers used construction board and just about broke his back lifting it. My book says that White Deal is European Spruce and the name white deal should be discontinued.

~Rog
 

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