Carpentry/ woodworking mathematics

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luke5050

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Hi! I'm Luke,

Long story short- after years of working in a warehouse with no real future, I've decided to enroll onto a carpentry course at my local college and I thought I would give myself a head start and learn some mathematics that are involved in carpentry. The trouble is that I don't know what to look at! Would you please suggest me what to study?

Thanks!
 
Try Pythagoras theorem and some basic right angle triangle trigonometry plus the geometry of circles,

That should put you up with or even ahead of most woodworkers.

Good luck with the course.
 
Hi Luke welcome to the forum. I like your proactive attitude!

Ive worked in joinery for many years and hardly met anybody that can do maths, so would agree with the above.

There is not really any complex maths required, but sound understanding of the basics will stand you in good stead.

Angles - 99% of all angles can be calculated using right angled triangle geometry, so I would def learn that. There are triangle solver apps for smartphones, I use one often. Ive designed and built roof lanterns and conservatory roofs with compound cuts all worked out with right angled geometry, house roofs are the same, although set out tables generally hides the maths behind them.

Learn how to bisect angles. Cutting architrave around a door is easy, the cuts are 45 degrees. How would you cut architrave for a door with a raked head? They arr common under a stairs.

Pythagoras: very useful triangles are 3, 4, 5 and 1, 1, sq root 2

Work out how you would set out a bookcase with a number of shelves equally spaced a very common set out in carpentry.

Other useful calcs include, chords to work out arches, angles for hexagon, octagon (often used in bay windows).
 
There's loads of on-line "Maths for Beginners" courses.
As others have said you can go a long way without much maths but I'd definitely have a go if I were you. Nothing to lose, will be useful and who knows where it might take you.

But the bit of maths you really do need is geometry together with some simple drawing ability. You (eventually) will need a drawing board, T square, set square, scales, protractor, pencils, rubbers etc. Doesn't need to be expensive - basic school stuff and a bit of ply for a board will do. You don't need any "artistic flair" you aren't producing drawings for show but just using them as an essential tool.
Sketch-Up etc. are not alternatives - you need to get handy with geometry and a pencil!
 
Does your college do any Maths or Tech Drawing courses ? My skills (I am not a professional woodworker) are basically A Level Mathematics and Tech Drawing, though O Level would be enough (you really don't need to know how to prove Apoloneous or Pythagoras Theorems to make things)
 
I would offer slightly different advice - lean how to convert from feet and inches to metric, learn fractions of an inch to mm, know the difference between 2400 x 1200 boards and 8' x 4' boards, and be able to work out board feet and cubic meters (or parts thereof) as well as being able to count in base 2.4 eg I need 100m of moulding which comes in 2.4m lengths - how many do you need to buy?. You will likely also benefit from knowing angles (how to use a bevel gauge and protractor) and as stated how to bisect a circle into smaller divisions eg 60 degree cuts for a 6 sided hexagon. Even experienced woodworkers tend to do trial cuts on things like dado to ensure you have the right compound angle so don't think you have to know it all in advance - this type of stuff also becomes much easier with practice and use!

Steve
 
I'd agree with StevieB on this one, being able to move between metric and imperial is a good skill to have.

Additionally as an aside but related to your question, I would spend some time looking into marking methods. No point honing your math skills to then mark up with a carpenters pencil which itself will introduce errors (albeit at small scale). Make sure you start with tools that enable you to accurately transfer your new found skills directly to the wood in question.

A good marking knife (or two) and decent layout equipment will be money well spent IMO. As an example, the Incra rules have a good method in that they mark the actual point as opposed to somewhere near it.
 
Hi Luke,

I'm only an amateur, but congratulations on having a really good attitude -- keep it up and you'll go far.

Maths: I can't add much to what everyone else has said, except this:

If you never have done so before, start playing with a spreadsheet on a PC or a tablet, so you're used to one before your course starts.

It's not complicated, although it looks a bit daunting at first glance. Basically it's a super-calculator: it takes stuff from some boxes on the grid, and puts the answer in another box, and it will do this with lots of calculations at once.

It lays out calculations neatly, and you can change just the numbers as you need to (keeping the same rules), so that you can use the same spreadsheet many times over to get correct answers on different projects. So if you have joinery angles to calculate, or you need to work out how much timber you're paying for, it's just the job.

Spreadsheets began as huge sheets of paper used by bookkeepers and accountants, mainly to do accounts. They're really good for that, so when you come to pricing up and invoicing it's the weapon of choice.

You do NOT need to spend any money at all to get a good spreadsheet program. There's Open Office, which is FREE and you can download and use it on PCs, Macs (OS X) and Linux (which often includes a very good version called "Libre Office"). In Open Office and Libre Office, the spreadsheet part is called "Calc".

There are many, many tutorials out there, but I think it's a truly brilliant tool, for both the business side and the actual joinery calculations. Once you get the hang of it, you'll be way ahead of the field in your accuracy, and in keeping track of the business side.

E.

PS: Have a look at SketchUp, too for making accurate 3D models of stuff you're making. Personally, I'd get to grips with simple geometry first though, as sooner or later you'll need to put numbers into SketchUp (distances, angles, etc.), and the geometry is the first thing to 'nail'!
 
mseries":3414wooy said:
presumably on the carpentry course they'll teach how to mark things up, that's not mathematics

Based on what I've seen and heard re: courses these days, I wouldn't presume that, hence my comment. And no it's not mathematics, but then I never said it was, however the purpose of the math is to transfer this to wood.
 
shed9":117x34d6 said:
mseries":117x34d6 said:
presumably on the carpentry course they'll teach how to mark things up, that's not mathematics

Based on what I've seen and heard re: courses these days, I wouldn't presume that, hence my comment. And no it's not mathematics, but then I never said it was, however the purpose of the math is to transfer this to wood.
Oh yes it is mathematics.
There's a whole set of drawing techniques which turn your pencil, straight edge, compass, dividers, into calculators. Most of all when it comes to drawing up a rod - it may not involve numbers at all (say you are taking your first marks from something existing) but still works as a very efficient calculator and helps to avoid all those mad addings up on the backs of envelopes.

PS dividers are one of the most useful graphical calculators - the quickest and easiest way not just to mark out but to actually calculate a series of equal divisions, or alternating equal divisions like dovetail marking.
 
When I was taught geometry at school, we were always impressed by the precision of the teacher's
answers (put on a notice board after exams). And yet he was accurate to 3 sig figs (although
I wouldn't have described it that way, then)

He was using the same basic plastic geometry kit as we were given - just basic Helix school stuff in a tin.

it was only much later in my education I found he indeed making a drawing - but getting his actuals answer from basic trigonometry.

Geometry and mathematics are related (vide that nice Mr Descartes, back in the 17th C), and maths can do all that geometry can,
but not vice versa.

BugBear
 
My general answer would be: geometry - and specifically trigonometry and circles/arcs. I don't know what the syllabus is like these days, but in the mid-nineties I learned everything I've ever used in woodwork at GCSE; if the syllabus is the same these days I don't think there's any real reason to learn anything more advanced. (I did Maths and Further Maths A-Levels, then went on to a Computer Science degree that was full of maths, and the only geometry I encountered outside of GCSEs was a long way from practically applicable!)


And if you want to learn the mathematics of things in a particularly useful way, then there's one simple rule: whenever someone shows you a neat trick that helps you do some marking-out or checking particularly easily without having to get a calculator out, then make sure you understand why it works. It's quite probably the case that there's a simple mathematical principle behind it, and once you understand that you may well find some other things it's applicable to.

phil.p":2vdwgfrf said:
Sometimes 5 - 12 - 13 is more useful than 3 - 4 - 5.

Indeed! In case you're unaware: triangles with sides of 3, 4 and 5 or 5, 12 and 13 inches/metres/whatever will produce a right angle between the smaller two numbers - this is a practical application of Pythagoras' theorem.



In general, when you're using ratios between numbers to find a particular angle, it's always best to use the largest numbers that you can and the numbers with a ratio closest to the ratio of the thing you're measuring helps you do that. So if you're looking to get your 60mm by 450mm frame square, don't mark 60mm down one side and 80mm down the other and check that the distance between marks is 100mm (3x20, 4x20, 5x20) - mark 50mm down one side and 120mm down the other and check that the distance between is 130mm (5x10, 12x10, 13x10).

There are many such sets of whole numbers that work like this. They're called "Pythagorean Triples" and you can find a list (along with a load of Wikipedia's usual jargon-filled explanation) here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_triple

Looking at that list, for the above example you may even be better off with the triple (9, 40, 41), which fits the 60/450 shape even better. So you'd measure 54mm down one side and 240mm down the other, and check that the diagonal is 246mm (9x5, 40x5, 41x5).


The reason for this is that you'll often be a millimetre or so out when you make your marks or measure from them, and the longer the distance you're measuring, the less significant that millimetre error is going to be. Two millimetre's difference over 100mm is a 2% error, while 2m difference over 246mm is only a 0.8% error.







(On the same topic of squares, I don't think I noticed anyone mention the easiest application of Pythagoras: if you're making a thing which is supposed to be rectangular, then assuming that all the sides are straight (hold them against each other one way around and the other to check for no gaps) and opposite sides are actually the same length (check with a tape measure), the distance from a corner to the opposite corner will be the same for both diagonals if it's all in square.)



Another useful thing to understand is the number of things you can do with a pair of compasses - which tend to revolve around circles and triangles. There's a lot of useful examples on this chap's YouTube channel, in amongst the various projects and a number of other neat tips:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoCEoP ... 58O-l3ttDQ




If you ever need a smooth transition from one flat side to another, there's a useful trick that relies on the geometry of circles. Since the special property of circles is that the distance from the centre to the outside is the same all the way around the circle, there's also an easy way to find where to position a circle if you want to round a corner off to any particular radius. Simply set your combination square to the radius of your desired circle and use it to draw a line one radius in from the edge of the two sides you want to round. Where those two lines meet is the point that you start your compasses to draw the circle - it will touch but not go past both the sides that you marked from, assuming they're both straight:

corners.png


You can do this with inside corners as well - you just have to measure your lines and draw your circle into the offcut bit before you make the cut!

(The reason this works is that when you draw a line one radius away from an edge, any circle centred at a point along that line will just touch but not cross the edge that you referenced the line from. If you draw a circle that is centred on two such lines, therefore, it will simultaneously touch but not cross both edges.)

bugbear":2vdwgfrf said:
Geometry and mathematics are related (vide that nice Mr Descartes, back in the 17th C), and maths can do all that geometry can,
but not vice versa.

As Bugbear I think hints at here: the problem with learning maths to do woodwork is that the academic approach to maths assumes that all planes are perfectly flat, all angles are easily measured and marked, and so on - so it's worth knowing some geometry and trig, but it's also worth knowing some tools to transfer that academic knowledge into practical use. Generally when you're doing woodwork you don't want to be getting your protractor out and measuring angles unless you absolutely have to, because there will be some error in the process that could be eliminated or sidestepped if you take a different approach. Checking the ratio as above is a much easier-to-replicate and easier-to-measure process than sticking a ruler against a square and drawing a line while hoping that nothing moved, so it's a better answer in the practical situation of cutting a bit of wood. Similarly, once you've learned some trigonometry and can work out exactly what length the opposite side of a triangle with a 35-degree adjacent angle is, you'll also want to work out the other two side lengths so you can mark and check them using ratios and get the angle more accurately than you'd be able to do by marking dots around the outside of a plastic Helix protractor. And it's easy, because every triangle is made up of right angled triangles one way or another:

triangles.png

;-)
 

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bugbear":61b2o7gj said:
....
Geometry and mathematics are related (vide that nice Mr Descartes, back in the 17th C),
They are more than "related" - geometry IS a branch of maths.
and maths can do all that geometry can,
but not vice versa.

BugBear
Very arguable! It's horses for courses - some things are much better done with geometry and vice versa (if you mean by "maths"; maths other than geometry). But woodwork in the end is mostly geometry i.e. about shapes.
 
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Thank you all for your replies! I am amazed by the amount of responses and help! I already happen to know the 3, 4, 5 rule and I will be buying a geometry set tomorrow to practise the rest of the stuff.

The carpentry course will start in September. It's a Level 3 course which normally requires a person to already have a level 1 in carpentry or be able to prove some knowledge of carpentry. I've done some skirting board cutting and fitting before. I'm also working on a little portfolio to take with me to the interview which will be sometime in the next couple of weeks. I just finished building an easel for my girlfriend. It's super satisfying to build something out of pieces of wood!
 

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Jacob":3ti6ld0p said:
bugbear":3ti6ld0p said:
....
Geometry and mathematics are related (vide that nice Mr Descartes, back in the 17th C),
They are more than "related" - geometry IS a branch of maths

Descartes proved the equivalence of geometry and (part of) algebra - his famous cartesian plane.

He defined how one relates to the other.

You can learn more about the relationship of maths and geometry here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_geometry

As an aside, do you know a ruler-and-compass way to find the radius of an arch segment, given a rise and a span? Algebraically it's quite easy, and has been discussed here before.

BugBear
 
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