i recently have been asked to manufacture some carcasses for 8 bathrooms using MFC board. I would like to use Cam and dowel, mainly for the convenience but would be interested in any other comments i:e pocket screws? i have a couple of routers spare that i could set up into tables and a pillar drill and portable drills at my disposal. I am considering a table saw for sizing the boards as i feel it would make the repetitive cuts much quicker rather than the TS55 which would entail measuring each peice separately. There is a possibility that more work would come from this and therefore a Quality saw would be a prudent spend i feel i am looking at either a hammer at the bottom range to a Felder 500. what are you thoughts big wadkins what are they like? i don't have three phase in my garage so would have to buy a transformer. The garage is 8m x 6m. I am not interested in producing doors as i can get them off the rack so easily but may need the ability to cut and finish oak boards into shelves in the future, so would a combo be useful now or invest in a planer later as and when required. Thanks to all in advance. :?:
carcasses and tables saws
- Thread starter Riggly
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Mcluma
Established Member
I think you are looking at a scheppach ts4000 (used) or a EB pkf255 (with a scoring unit
This is from a strictly amateur point of view. I have made the cabinets for my kitchen from MFC and I roughly sized parts with a hand-held CS and sawboard, because you need a lot of space to break down 8' x 4' sheets on a tablesaw (at least 16' for a rip cut). Also tablesaws without scoring blades don't make a great job cutting MFC without some chipout at the edges. I ended up dressing show edges on the router table, you could use your planer to do the same. Your Festool will do as good (or better) a job of clean cutting MFC as most tablesaws and needs a lot less floor space to operate, though not as good for repetitive cuts.
JonnyD
Established Member
Hi as has already been said a saw with a scoring blade will produce the best finish. I have looked at the felder 500 and it seemed a decent saw although they had cut a few corners over the 700 series to meet the price point.
Another alternative if you have a lot of panels the same size is too make mdf templates of the sizes needed and trim the mfc to the template with a replacable blade router cutter which will give a chip free finish. This template can also have holes for hinge mounting plates and shelf supports so you can machine the whole panel in one process as long as you have a couple of routers and guide bushes. A 5mm router dowel drill should be all you need for these holes.
I have used cam and dowel in the past but without a line boring machine can be quite time consuming to set up. I presently use a festool domino to joint the carcases and use carcase screws and some glue in the dominos to hold everything together. This system guarantees perfect alignment of the components and is very strong and fairly quick. If the end panel of the carcase is seen pocket screws can be used instead.
jon
Another alternative if you have a lot of panels the same size is too make mdf templates of the sizes needed and trim the mfc to the template with a replacable blade router cutter which will give a chip free finish. This template can also have holes for hinge mounting plates and shelf supports so you can machine the whole panel in one process as long as you have a couple of routers and guide bushes. A 5mm router dowel drill should be all you need for these holes.
I have used cam and dowel in the past but without a line boring machine can be quite time consuming to set up. I presently use a festool domino to joint the carcases and use carcase screws and some glue in the dominos to hold everything together. This system guarantees perfect alignment of the components and is very strong and fairly quick. If the end panel of the carcase is seen pocket screws can be used instead.
jon
That is a very smart idea, sort of rod and template combined. I too use replaceable blade router cutters for trimming edges. a 50 mm worktop bit will do a fair run of edging, seems tougher than regular tungsten carbide and the blades are reversible. I can recommend the Wealden ones, good vfm.JonnyD":2n60jldl said:
If you are intending to do all the panel cutting on the TS then you will need the longest beam on the Felder and even then its a job to handle the full size panel. I tend to use a circ saw to cut the boards into two or three pieces and then go to the TS.
With a freshly sharpened laminate blade with high top bevel angle I can get a near chip free finish, which if you keep all the carcase insides facing up will do fine, scoring unit will be better though. For batch work like this the TS with sliding table is far quicker than trimming with a router.
Having said that I have used the router method in the passed which gives a good finish as long as you keep replacing the blades, as an idea of wear, I got through 4pr of replaceable blades on this job and with a 19x50mm multi-trim cutter you get 4 fresh edges per pair of blades, so that would be eual to 16 cutting edges!! As has been said put all your hinge & shelf stud holes into the template.
Unless you need to specifically be able to flat pack the carcases ther is no point in cam & dowel construction as without the right tools it is too slow to drill all the holes accurately. Better to go with dowels, dominos or biscuits, I use the latter with carcase screws which will hold the carcase as the glue dries.
Out of interest where are you buying your bathroom size doors? as its not always easy to get them the right size with matching panels for semi-countertop basins and BTW pans & cisterns, my source is limited to about 10 styles of door, but its still a lot cheaper to make my own carcases as even with trade discount the carcases are very overpriced.
Jason
With a freshly sharpened laminate blade with high top bevel angle I can get a near chip free finish, which if you keep all the carcase insides facing up will do fine, scoring unit will be better though. For batch work like this the TS with sliding table is far quicker than trimming with a router.
Having said that I have used the router method in the passed which gives a good finish as long as you keep replacing the blades, as an idea of wear, I got through 4pr of replaceable blades on this job and with a 19x50mm multi-trim cutter you get 4 fresh edges per pair of blades, so that would be eual to 16 cutting edges!! As has been said put all your hinge & shelf stud holes into the template.
Unless you need to specifically be able to flat pack the carcases ther is no point in cam & dowel construction as without the right tools it is too slow to drill all the holes accurately. Better to go with dowels, dominos or biscuits, I use the latter with carcase screws which will hold the carcase as the glue dries.
Out of interest where are you buying your bathroom size doors? as its not always easy to get them the right size with matching panels for semi-countertop basins and BTW pans & cisterns, my source is limited to about 10 styles of door, but its still a lot cheaper to make my own carcases as even with trade discount the carcases are very overpriced.
Jason
JonnyD
Established Member
Hi another thing to consider is that most good quality MFC comes in approx 2070 X 2700mm sheets and you will probably need to break it down before going to the saw. I can just about cut one or these sheets on my saw but it needs 2 people and the sheet bends a little so the scoring saw isnt always in full contact.
jon
jon
Oryxdesign
Established Member
Have you considered trying to get someone local with a sliding table saw to size the panels? It may be worth going this way to see if you get repeat work before you spend your hard earned on an expensive saw. I got by for 6 months with a TS55 making kitchens, I got pretty good at repeatability by measuring of the back of the guide, but as soon as I made enough cash I bought an Altendorf sliding table saw. Looking back I don't know how I managed without it.
My preference for construction is dominos with pocket hole screws as I find them easier to hide.
Simon
My preference for construction is dominos with pocket hole screws as I find them easier to hide.
Simon
CNC Paul
Established Member
Riggly,
I am in Watford, I have a SCM with a 3.2m slider if I can be of assistance let me know.
Paul
I am in Watford, I have a SCM with a 3.2m slider if I can be of assistance let me know.
Paul
ProShop
Established Member
I'm not sure the Hammer or Felder 500 will give you the sliding table length to cut a full sheet, the 500 goes to 2500 but utilising a support leg. Or did so when Felder launched the 500 series which isn't to everyone's liking. And the 2500 is the slider length, it isn't the cutting length which is less than this
I have a 2800mm Felder 700 with max size outrigger which will cut a full sheet, but you'll need the parallel fence attachment as well to support the sheet fully, if your not familiar with these machines you use the slider to size the sheets, not the rip fence.
Also a point worth noting there's the usual wait of approx 3 months for new machines unless you can find a showroom stock machine they're wanting to move on. And as I've mentioned before Felders customer service is dire imho. And they've just gone up 12% too :shock:
You could buy a s/hand Altendorf, much better machine or try SCM 's new technomac range, much improved from their previous encarnations.
Hope you have lots of room as all these machine eat serious floor space
.
Hope this helps
I have a 2800mm Felder 700 with max size outrigger which will cut a full sheet, but you'll need the parallel fence attachment as well to support the sheet fully, if your not familiar with these machines you use the slider to size the sheets, not the rip fence.
Also a point worth noting there's the usual wait of approx 3 months for new machines unless you can find a showroom stock machine they're wanting to move on. And as I've mentioned before Felders customer service is dire imho. And they've just gone up 12% too :shock:
You could buy a s/hand Altendorf, much better machine or try SCM 's new technomac range, much improved from their previous encarnations.
Hope you have lots of room as all these machine eat serious floor space
.Hope this helps
thanks for all your advice, jason b that kitchen was fine work and thanks for your offer of assistance CNC paul nice to know your handy.
just been looking at the domino i don't mind paying for festool but is it worth the extra dosh. Trend do a pocket screw jig for £60 any good what do you chaps use. I was planning to use KTW for the doors saturn gloss range but they don't do 658x296 doors but that size may just be a weird size i need to speak to the guy that drew the design. i have spoken to felder since posting and they are talking 6 weeks delivery and £4500 +vat for the 500 with the 2.5m table. What would you expect to pay for a good alterndorf there is a 1984 f45 on ebay starting @3800. what size working footprint would this need and does it need to be in the middle of the room. my garage is 6m wide and 8m deep but it would be nice to get the work van in for the tool security. car is currently a ford ranger double cab but i plan to change it for a vw caddy or similiar due to fuel prices. i have the order for the kitchens on this development but had planned on buying the carcasses in but this may now change. does any one know of reputable dealers in used machines near high wycombe i know of scott and sargant anyone had any dealings? finally where do you buy your mfc from and is there minimum order sizes.
thanks in advance for all you help
just been looking at the domino i don't mind paying for festool but is it worth the extra dosh. Trend do a pocket screw jig for £60 any good what do you chaps use. I was planning to use KTW for the doors saturn gloss range but they don't do 658x296 doors but that size may just be a weird size i need to speak to the guy that drew the design. i have spoken to felder since posting and they are talking 6 weeks delivery and £4500 +vat for the 500 with the 2.5m table. What would you expect to pay for a good alterndorf there is a 1984 f45 on ebay starting @3800. what size working footprint would this need and does it need to be in the middle of the room. my garage is 6m wide and 8m deep but it would be nice to get the work van in for the tool security. car is currently a ford ranger double cab but i plan to change it for a vw caddy or similiar due to fuel prices. i have the order for the kitchens on this development but had planned on buying the carcasses in but this may now change. does any one know of reputable dealers in used machines near high wycombe i know of scott and sargant anyone had any dealings? finally where do you buy your mfc from and is there minimum order sizes.
thanks in advance for all you help
CNC Paul
Established Member
Riggly,
Try Jaycee tools in Yeading (Hayes Middx), they have some saws in stock.
Paul
Try Jaycee tools in Yeading (Hayes Middx), they have some saws in stock.
Paul
Edens do Kronospan Kolorband and Egger Zoom ranges of boards, they don't really do single boards but an order of 6 or more should be OK, expect at least 17.5% off the £250 order list prices for trade, more if its a larger order.
Richard Russel are quite good too, don't have such a large range from stock but will get you most things.
Jason
Richard Russel are quite good too, don't have such a large range from stock but will get you most things.
Jason
JonnyD
Established Member
I have had a look at the roblands in the past and they seem a well built solid machine although not as refined as the altendorfs and other top end machines.
On the subject of mfc boards i would recommend the egger range as i feel it cuts better and has less hollow voids than the kronospan boards. a sales rep told me this was down to the kronospan core having a large percentage of recycled material which can include bits of metal.
Jon
On the subject of mfc boards i would recommend the egger range as i feel it cuts better and has less hollow voids than the kronospan boards. a sales rep told me this was down to the kronospan core having a large percentage of recycled material which can include bits of metal.
Jon
Dave S
Established Member
Riggly":2ligy8ft said:
How about story sticks? That's what I've used with my rail system before now and found it very effective. Not as quick as a tablesaw, maybe, but certainly much quicker than measuring each piece separately.
Dave
dear all
Just a quick thankyou for all your advice it was most helpfull. I just thought i should give you an update. I went to scott and sargeants last week and they had a single phase startrite CB310RLX combination machine with cast tables and a 2500mm cutting size behind the blade which will be more than enough for me as i can crosscut down to 1965 and then rip. This machine is five years old and will set me back 3K +VAT but i can claim that back i also bought a nice small edgebander pallet truck and 1.5hp dust extractor these last items were all new. They will put it through the shop and i pushed for some spare blades and a couple of small items. I know some of you dont like combi's and that is ok but this suits me fine and this machine is listed new at 6K plus VAT so i feel that i got a good deal. I'm busy clearing the garage ready for the new machine then it can start to get to work repaying my money.
Just a quick thankyou for all your advice it was most helpfull. I just thought i should give you an update. I went to scott and sargeants last week and they had a single phase startrite CB310RLX combination machine with cast tables and a 2500mm cutting size behind the blade which will be more than enough for me as i can crosscut down to 1965 and then rip. This machine is five years old and will set me back 3K +VAT but i can claim that back i also bought a nice small edgebander pallet truck and 1.5hp dust extractor these last items were all new. They will put it through the shop and i pushed for some spare blades and a couple of small items. I know some of you dont like combi's and that is ok but this suits me fine and this machine is listed new at 6K plus VAT so i feel that i got a good deal. I'm busy clearing the garage ready for the new machine then it can start to get to work repaying my money.
Freetochat
Established Member
Out of interest, what edgebander did you get. At present I have all my boards knocked down and edge banded for me on the long edges by the supplier. I then just cut to length and edge the short sides.
