Bringing goods from the EU

[Phil Pascoe]

If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal. -Emma Goldman

Additionally, Mark Twain’s isn’t the only name that has been attached to this though. American peace activist Phillip Berrigan and anarchist writer Emma Goldman have also been credited with originating this expression, although there is no evidence that either of them said or wrote it. - Snopes.

 

[Jacob]

Heaven forbid that democracy should extend to giving the bunch of thickies that are the British public the right to vote on such important issues. Far better to have not allowed such foolishness. You fetch the rope and I'll go find Cameron.

I didn't say they were thick but I do think they were lied to and thoroughly misled. You only have to ask what happened to the "oven ready' deal.

 

[D_W]

Maybe approval wasn't but that's not my point and apologies of I didn't express it clearly.

The Astra Zeneca dispute seems to point to the UK having gained an advantage by not having been wrapped up in the central purchasing process used by the EU.

This is the kind of political argument that you expect newspaper writers to make.

Because of brexit, you're getting the vaccine far sooner than you would have through the EU distribution channels and red tape.

JRM freely acknowledged that if another vote was taken, remain would win, and that's why it wasn't going to happen. How is that democratic?
And for what it's worth, I expect there were "thickies" on both sides. My problem has always been the lies told by the Brexitters. I've heard it said that there were lies on both sides, but I've not seen many details. I saw a lot of people saying "project fear", that's about it.

And after you rejoined, some EU mandate would pee everyone off and you'd be in position to vote to exit again - and most people for remaining would state that there shouldn't be a revote. How democratic would that be?

This is a typical situation just like presidential elections in the US where people forget why they voted what they did and complain about whatever is in place.

I was happy to see trump go but now we're greeted with absolutely stupid claims economically on a daily basis. Now, we're going to update the US vehicle fleet (650k vehicles) with battery powered union US made vehicles (which don't exist) that are majority US parts (also don't exist - tesla is the closest with about 55% US made parts). Tesla is out because they're not union, is the only auto maker in the US with any real growth potential and is probably ripe for federal meddling now with the current administration.

Oh, and somehow, we're going to create a million jobs on 650k vehicles. One wonders how much they're supposed to cost? Imagine a given year where you had to buy a simple basic vehicle that created using 1.5 jobs with benefits just for labor...the vehicles would cost $200k for a small mail cart.
Following will be contracts awarded to companies who can't meet the costs they propose (unlike tesla, which can actually meet cost targets), and new vehicles with no reliability history, but don't worry, the government will fix them once they buy them. Money doesn't matter when it comes from someone else.

..

you're living in a dream world when you dream about what could be vs. what is. Nobody will ever be satisfied with what is and with the what could be or what could have been, you'll never be forced to examine all of reality - only the favorable parts you like.

 

[D_W]

I didn't say they were thick but I do think they were lied to and thoroughly misled. You only have to ask what happened to the "oven ready' deal.

I'll bet the remain side was a rare breed of politicians who only made honest statements.

 

[doctor Bob]

Those look like predictions to me, rather than outright lies.

Some say predictions, some say porkies, depends on your politics doesn't it!!

 

[John Brown]

This is the kind of political argument that you expect newspaper writers to make.

Because of brexit, you're getting the vaccine far sooner than you would have through the EU distribution channels and red tape.



And after you rejoined, some EU mandate would pee everyone off and you'd be in position to vote to exit again - and most people for remaining would state that there shouldn't be a revote. How democratic would that be?

This is a typical situation just like presidential elections in the US where people forget why they voted what they did and complain about whatever is in place.

I was happy to see trump go but now we're greeted with absolutely stupid claims economically on a daily basis. Now, we're going to update the US vehicle fleet (650k vehicles) with battery powered union US made vehicles (which don't exist) that are majority US parts (also don't exist - tesla is the closest with about 55% US made parts). Tesla is out because they're not union, is the only auto maker in the US with any real growth potential and is probably ripe for federal meddling now with the current administration.

Oh, and somehow, we're going to create a million jobs on 650k vehicles. One wonders how much they're supposed to cost? Imagine a given year where you had to buy a simple basic vehicle that created using 1.5 jobs with benefits just for labor...the vehicles would cost $200k for a small mail cart.
Following will be contracts awarded to companies who can't meet the costs they propose (unlike tesla, which can actually meet cost targets), and new vehicles with no reliability history, but don't worry, the government will fix them once they buy them. Money doesn't matter when it comes from someone else.

..

you're living in a dream world when you dream about what could be vs. what is. Nobody will ever be satisfied with what is and with the what could be or what could have been, you'll never be forced to examine all of reality - only the favorable parts you like.

I don't think you quite understand how this stuff works, D_W. We can comment on stuff that goes on in the USA, but how dare you have the gall to think you know anything about UK politics. It seems you just like arguing. Have you run out of things to sharpen?

 

[sploo]

Some say predictions, some say porkies, depends on your politics doesn't it!!

There's a difference between poor forecasting and outright deception though.

You could make a prediction of the economic impact of a certain change, based on the available data, and that could be argued over (optimistic/pessimistic/missing important implications). Heck, you could even get to a point where most agree it's as good a prediction as is currently possible - and it could still turn out to be wrong.

Contrast that to making claims you know to be patently false. Especially claims you know to be false, but claims that have been carefully chosen to connect with your target audience.

One is making a mistake (or even just being poor at predicting), the other is lying.

 

[Droogs]

If or when this island ever rejoins it will be on the same conditions as the eastern european nations had to meet and comply with. There will be no special exemptions or rights as we will be joining either having failed to be successful outside as a united nation or in dribs and drabs after the UKs break up. Don't be surprised if/when an independant England rejoins its people face the same restrictions that the Poles, Hungarians and others faced re right to work/live etc for the first few years. Also our rights to full citizenship rights would be dependant on us being able to bring our failing economy into line through unbelievable austerity to adopt the Euro without which we will not be allowed to rejoin. If Scotland and N Ireland split from UK early enough and return to the fold, I believe they would not have any of the problems England would but it would have to be done within the next 5 years and the Scots would have not doubts about adopting the Euro instead of the continued use of sterling.

 

[doctor Bob]

There's a difference between poor forecasting and outright deception though.

You could make a prediction of the economic impact of a certain change, based on the available data, and that could be argued over (optimistic/pessimistic/missing important implications). Heck, you could even get to a point where most agree it's as good a prediction as is currently possible - and it could still turn out to be wrong.

Contrast that to making claims you know to be patently false. Especially claims you know to be false, but claims that have been carefully chosen to connect with your target audience.

One is making a mistake (or even just being poor at predicting), the other is lying.

You say mistake, I say lie. It's really not rocket science to see that "what doesn't suit your agenda", is just a poor forcast, we can all do that. It's not big and it's not clever, it's also extremely transparent. Still it will give you a few brownie points from John I suppose, you may even get a bit more kudos within your gang.

 

[D_W]

I don't think you quite understand how this stuff works, D_W. We can comment on stuff that goes on in the USA, but how dare you have the gall to think you know anything about UK politics. It seems you just like arguing. Have you run out of things to sharpen?

yeah, things to sharpen are running low - every time I find a new faster trick for sharpening or grinding, everything gets tuned up and then there's nothing to do. Thus resorting to making more tools.

 

[D_W]

I'll ink you guys in on some of our government battery powered vehicles. They'll be expensive, probably not very reliable, probably not very much range, but platitude approved! Tell Jacob they're green and paid for with someone else's money. He'll love 'em.

 

[doctor Bob]

I don't think you quite understand how this stuff works, D_W. We can comment on stuff that goes on in the USA, but how dare you have the gall to think you know anything about UK politics. It seems you just like arguing. Have you run out of things to sharpen?

Is this a joke post. I hope so. If it's for real, well I'm lost for words. Spo much for globilisation and embracing different nations and culture, open to all.
In John's case, not quite ..............

 

[sploo]

You say mistake, I say lie. It's really not rocket science to see that "what doesn't suit your agenda", is just a poor forcast, we can all do that. It's not big and it's not clever, it's also extremely transparent. Still it will give you a few brownie points from John I suppose, you may even get a bit more kudos within your gang.

My point stands; an honest but flawed prediction/estimate is different to a known lie.

Or to put it another way - have you ever miscalculated the cost of a job due to an honest mistake or unforeseen circumstances (I know I have). That's totally different to knowingly telling someone a false figure in order to manipulate them. Having never met you (but seen a fair few of your posts) I rather suspect you've never done the latter because you're a decent human being - unlike those who deliberately misled the public.

 

[doctor Bob]

My point stands; an honest but flawed prediction/estimate is different to a known lie.

Or to put it another way - have you ever miscalculated the cost of a job due to an honest mistake or unforeseen circumstances (I know I have). That's totally different to knowingly telling someone a false figure in order to manipulate them. Having never met you (but seen a fair few of your posts) I rather suspect you've never done the latter because you're a decent human being - unlike those who deliberately misled the public.

Oh come on, stop it.
George Osbournes figures were so far out he looked like a right pineapple. He lied.
I have never said that job is going to cost £800,000 and then found it cost nothing to make.
George to use your words, knowingly told people a false figure.

 

[Rorschach]

If Scotland and N Ireland split from UK early enough and return to the fold, I believe they would not have any of the problems England would but it would have to be done within the next 5 years and the Scots would have not doubts about adopting the Euro instead of the continued use of sterling.

You haven't been paying much attention to the Scotland/EU debate then have you? Scotland can't join the EU with the pound which it wants to keep, but it wouldn't be able to join anyway because it's debts are too high. It would also not get any more favourable terms than any other country no matter how quickly it joined (if it were allowed).

 

[billw]

If Scotland want to go, bloody let them. I suspect the realities of independence will be a whopping punch in the face and they'll have their local version of Brexit. Oh and if it were my choice I'd make it clear that it was a one-way street. Dissolve the UK as soon as they go.

 

[D_W]

This is the magic of politics. Only one side intentionally misleads the public. The other may have errors greater in magnitude or lesser, but if they say the right things or belong to the right group, their costly mistakes are "honest".

The only trouble is that nobody agrees across the board which side is which.

 

[John Brown]

well I'm lost for words.

In that case my work is done.
Was it a joke? What do you think?

 

[D_W]

but it wouldn't be able to join anyway because it's debts are too high.........

objectively solving their own problems and figuring out how to make their services attractive to the rest of the world is out, I guess?

 

[Blackswanwood]

This is the kind of political argument that you expect newspaper writers to make.

Because of brexit, you're getting the vaccine far sooner than you would have through the EU distribution channels and red tape.

This is the kind of comment someone who hasn't followed what has happened would make.