Bringing goods from the EU

[artie]

You may disagree, but the vote Leave campaign was indeed entirely built on negativity......emotive slogans convincing Brexiteers that UK had lost its freedom and sovereignty and Brexit would get it back.

And in what way was that negative?

 

[Jacob]

And in what way was that negative?

In that it wasn't true. We are now less free.
The most symbolic loss of freedom we've insanely inflicted upon ourselves is freedom of movement.
The practical losses are being documented every day as exporters/importers rage against red tape and regulations, which membership of the EU freed us from.
We are all waiting for someone to put their hand up and point us to a real advantage in Brexit which isn't pie in the sky, but so far there has been nothing. The only good news is that if we ever have a socialist government they will be free of EU constraints on some issues, but these could have been negotiated for from within and in partnership with other European socialists.

 

[sploo]

And in what way was that negative?

Because it wasn't true. It was painting a picture of the UK as a victim, an oppressed nation, shackled by evil foreign rules that were woven into the fabric of our society. It was an argument that used fear, isolationism and nationalism as it base.

Oh, and also plenty of hypocrisy; what with the EU being an insidious organisation controlling every part of the UK, and it being simultaneously really easy to split.

As we've so painfully seen, details, facts, reality - all of those inconvenient things were brushed aside; but people are now having to deal with that lack of thought, as you can't just hand wave away the realities of trade and international law.

 

[Noel]

And in what way was that negative?

You’re having a larf Artie, eh?

 

[artie]

In that it wasn't true.

Because it wasn't true.

Then it was a lie not negative.

 

[artie]

You’re having a larf Artie, eh?

Nothing funny about it.

"slogans convincing Brexiteers that UK had lost its freedom and sovereignty and Brexit would get it back. "

Was a very positive thing , and millions fell for it.

 

[Jacob]

Then it was a lie not negative.

OK he's avin a laff!
In the real world lying is generally regarded as a negative sort of thing, especially if it relates to and influences important issues.
Would a diagram help? n.b. a "false positive" is a negative.

 

[billw]

And in what way was that negative?

Because it was utter bullcack aimed at appeasing a lot of folk who want it to be the 1950s again.

 

[sploo]

Then it was a lie not negative.

They lied about negative stuff.

Ok, the NHS claim on the side of the bus was arguably positive (in that it was insinuating that money could go to a good cause). It was a lie of course (on multiple levels), and extremely cynical and deceptive; given the economic politics of those who stood in front of said bus.

Most of the rest was based on the idea of the UK being shackled by the EU; playing to nationalism, and fear of "others". I.e. negative/victim mentality. It worked though; at least for the purposes of the vote.

 

[Richard_C]

Early 2019 I had a short trip to Lens (the Louvre outpost), Lille and Brussels to beat the potential no deal no transition cliff edge we faced then. In Brussels there is an EU visitor center, had been before, and the first gallery contains pictures of the post WW2 destruction, poverty and chaos. There was a political will to rebuild and make sure it didn't happen again, which led to the coal and steel union of France, Germany and the Benelux countries, the beginnings of the EEC and eventually the EU.

There is good evidence that countries which trade with one another don't go to war with one another, and if there is a mutual dependency the chances are reduced even more. That was the ideal. It worked, if you are old enough to remember the cold war, the iron curtain and the 3 minute warning reality or have visited Berlin and seen the nuclear shelter, or worked out how much the UK and USA spent on a permanent tank and troop army on the Rhine you would never have imagined that the USSR would collapse and the iron curtain be pushed back so far that E Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Latvia and so many more evolved into free democracies with consumer, human and employment rights underpinned by the ECJ and ECHR. Not a shot was fired. The EU presented a trade and a social vision that people could buy in to.

Maybe that is what Churchill meant when he made a speech to youth in Zurich in 1946, the quote is proudly displayed in that gallery:

"We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple hopes and joys which make life with living".

Lots of "Brexiteers" have appropriated Churchill, Johnson, Francois, Duncan Smith, but conveniently forget that he was one of the most pro European post war leaders.

This thread started as one about practical implications, which get worse every day. We all have examples, my daughter awaits new carpets ordered early December and expected first week in January- fitters say "dunno when, the carpet you ordered is made in France, not had a delivery for ages....." Easy excuse perhaps, Felixtowe, lorries, brexit, covid... who knows. But it's trivial compared to the big picture. Yes we can 'bail out' fishermen short term, but not forever. We can compensate business in NI short term, but not forever. We have already spent the big red bus £350m a week several times over in direct costs and harm to the economy. But that too is trivial in comparison to the big picture.

The world is increasingly dominated by 3 big and influential trading blocs - USA/NA, China and the EU. With trade power comes diplomatic power, and no country wants to deploy the only other source of influence, military power. As well as the 3 blocs, there are the oil suppliers who will become less influential as we turn away from fossil fuels and a few much smaller groups happy to build local free trade arrangements. Counties like Japan are far less relevant than they were 25 years ago. Not only are we not in one of those 3 important blocs, we actively chose to leave.

A song keeps going through my head, Pink Floyd "Final Cut" - Post War Dream:


What have we done to England?
Should we shout, should we scream
"What happened to the post war dream?"

 

[artie]

The goal posts weren't long in shifting.
I learned this lesson before but forgot.
Nothing more from me.

 

[Noel]

The goal posts weren't long in shifting.
I learned this lesson before but forgot.
Nothing more from me.

Got your Green Card?

 

[artie]

Could you spell that one out for me?
Not getting it?

 

[sploo]

The goal posts weren't long in shifting.
I learned this lesson before but forgot.
Nothing more from me.

The only moving goalposts of which I'm aware were the ever changing promises Boris made to those whose support he needed (e.g. just ask the DUP).

The position that Brexit is and always was a process based on fear and deception (i.e. negativity) has never changed.

 

[Noel]

Could you spell that one out for me?
Not getting it?

When you drive down to Dublin bay to see the fine country of Wales of course. : )

 

[sploo]

When you drive down to Dublin bay to see the fine country of Wales of course. : )

Out of interest; what is the current status for NI residents wishing to drive across the border to ROI? I assume there's been some fudge to try to maintain a lack of physical borders?

 

[RobinBHM]

And in what way was that negative?

Because it was built on the belief that it was the EU that had taken our sovereignty.
Brexit was built on fear: fear of the EU, fear of immigrants.

Fear is a negative emotion

 

[Noel]

Out of interest; what is the current status for NI residents wishing to drive across the border to ROI? I assume there's been some fudge to try to maintain a lack of physical borders?

Currently you canny, unless for good/essential reason, cause of C-19. Police/Garda checkpoints most of the time. A green card to indicate insurance compliance has been needed since Jan 1st. Other than that no difference, CTA etc. Oh and lots of smuggling, both ways, on goods etc. Imagine the people traffickers will get busy soon....
.

 

[MarkDennehy]

Although Mark is in Ireland, which as he describes is now suffering many ill effects of Brexit (fishing, customs red tape and tax/duties and so much else) Johnson did indeed threw NI under the bus.

Y'know, it's gotten so bad watching some of the coverage of all this in the last few years, that it's genuinely nice when someone doesn't confuse Ireland and Northern Ireland...

GB has been a distribution hub for goods to NI/Ireland and further afield since UK joined the EU. It’s difficult to see that continuing

It probably won't for Ireland at least; we already have new ferry lines opened up to France and another opens on Monday to Amsterdam and more will follow because we're still below the capacity we were at in December. Delivery prices will increase significantly as well, though it's interesting to note that I now pay less for delivery from amazon.de than I do from amazon.co.uk for the same item (when they're being delivered from german and UK distribution centers). The cost of the customs and red tape and so forth is that high, at least at the moment.

 

[billw]

Imagine the carnage when an independent Scotland joins the EU.