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Fergie 307

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Bild Zeitung a couple of weeks ago -


In the end — as Germany’s most respected politician today, Wolfgang Schaeuble, the President of our Bundestag Parliament, admits — the urge is to align fiscal and budget policies. This will centralise the EU to such an extent that not only separate national governments, but even the nations themselves will become a thing of the past, at least in all practical and legal senses.
That seems a pretty fair assessment to me, and exactly why I think we are better off to leave. Where is the urge he speaks of coming from, not one suspects the member countries governments. This is the problem. The Commission set up to administer the necessary bureaucracy to facilitate co-operation in trade and other areas has ceased to see itself as the servant of the members, it now wants to be the boss.
 

jcassidy

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Bild Zeitung a couple of weeks ago -


In the end — as Germany’s most respected politician today, Wolfgang Schaeuble, the President of our Bundestag Parliament
Now you're quoting the German version of the Telegraph, quoting the guy who invented austerity budgets, wanted to burn Greece, sink Spain, barred Germany from taking on any new debt, and was all for the invasion of Iraq...
 

sploo

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That seems a pretty fair assessment to me, and exactly why I think we are better off to leave. Where is the urge he speaks of coming from, not one suspects the member countries governments. This is the problem. The Commission set up to administer the necessary bureaucracy to facilitate co-operation in trade and other areas has ceased to see itself as the servant of the members, it now wants to be the boss.
So - I'm not going to disagree with most of the sentences in the above post, but think for a minute why the first sentence may be a problem. Take a look at our current boss (and his motley crew of malevolent incompetents) and ask yourself the question; are we really better off to leave?

Point being; whenever someone complains of the risk of being run by "their lot", they rather ignore the quality of "our lot". Does anyone really think our governments are our servants?
 

Phil Pascoe

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Now you're quoting the German version of the Telegraph, quoting the guy who invented austerity budgets, wanted to burn Greece, sink Spain, barred Germany from taking on any new debt, and was all for the invasion of Iraq...
Actually I'm quoting Wolfgang Schaeuble. Just because you object to the source it doesn't make what he said matter less.
 

billw

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Actually I'm quoting Wolfgang Schaeuble. Just because you object to the source it doesn't make what he said matter less.
I think his point was that the publication is selective in who they quote, and the guy might be quite extreme.
 

Phil Pascoe

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Something that might actually be of use, from today's Times -

Sir, Your leading article (“Making Brexit Work”, Jan 22) raised a number of important issues that the government is working hard to address. I wanted to correct the record on the helpline for HMRC’s Chief IT system for customs. I’m pleased to confirm that there is a helpline. The number is 0300 3222 9434 and businesses can also speak to an adviser online at tax.service.gov.uk. The helpline has taken around 20,000 calls in the past two weeks and handled roughly 91 per cent of calls, with an average speed-to-answer of around 20 seconds. We appreciate that businesses have done an enormous amount to prepare for the changes that Brexit brings and some are encountering difficulties as we adjust to our new relationship. We stand ready to help ensure goods can continue to flow smoothly and support businesses to deal with the changes.
Lord Agnew of Oulton, minister,
HM Treasury and Cabinet Office
 

Droogs

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Think you underestimate the significance of the two words "kind of". Churchill never suggested the surrender of individual countries sovereignty to an overarching European Parliament. This is typical of the sort of misinterpretation that is so annoying. The idea was to try and prevent any resurgence of German power, and to present a unified front against communism. The best way to do these things was for all the countries to be members of a club, where differences could be resolved by talking, rather than shooting at one another.
That is exactly what we had, a semi federal EU where countries gave up some sovereign powers for the collective good but on the whole retain the right to take them back and also swing the full strength of all their other powers. Remember no EU law could be applied in the UK until it was ratified by our own parliament not a single EU directive or law has ever been put on the statute books in the UK with prior ratification and approval of our MPs.
 

Noel

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Macron won the French election out of nowhere, in an almost Trumpesque upset. He did so on the back of promises he has been unable to fulfil and is now deeply unpopular. Who is waiting in the wings, the likes of Marie Le Penn, right wing nationalists. They have made it very clear that they would seek to leave, so I wouldn't be so sure. Very sadly these sort of right wing politicians are gaining popularity in many countries, and many have similar anti EU views.
I really worry what will happen when Frau Merkel goes. She has been such a towering figure in European politics. Unfortunately she has already run into difficulties at home because of her liberal stance on immigration in particular. Now we have left Germany is by far the largest contributor to the EU, and the right wing there are very vocal in their opposition to what they are as Germany having to prop up other members. I have no idea who will replace Merkel, but it seems a fair bet that it will be someone less liberal than she has been.
You’re a bit out of touch with French politics. Marine Le Penn (not Marie) is pro EU and pro Euro. Her FN party has moved to the centre right after the 2017 election loss (Macron’s LREM party won on a pro EU with deeper ties to Brussels ticket) and is viewed as republican, as opposed to her father’s nationalist far right views, views for which his daughter expelled him from the party.
 

Fergie 307

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So - I'm not going to disagree with most of the sentences in the above post, but think for a minute why the first sentence may be a problem. Take a look at our current boss (and his motley crew of malevolent incompetents) and ask yourself the question; are we really better off to leave?

Point being; whenever someone complains of the risk of being run by "their lot", they rather ignore the quality of "our lot". Does anyone really think our governments are our servants?
I recall a marvellous observation made some time ago by Will Self on question time. He said that we get the politicians we deserve, his reasoning being that we moan when they lie, but if they tell us the truth we won't vote for them. Whilst I wouldn't normally expect to agree with him, on this point I think he was spot on. I couldn't agree more about our current leading politicians, a right shower the lot of them. But at least we have the opportunity to boot them out after a few years, which makes them have to have at least some interest in doing whatever they were elected to do. Whether you like the German politician quoted or not, his is a pretty accurate summary of the long term goals of the EU. If you want to be governed by an EU president then fair play, I dont.
 

sploo

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I recall a marvellous observation made some time ago by Will Self on question time. He said that we get the politicians we deserve, his reasoning being that we moan when they lie, but if they tell us the truth we won't vote for them. Whilst I wouldn't normally expect to agree with him, on this point I think he was spot on. I couldn't agree more about our current leading politicians, a right shower the lot of them. But at least we have the opportunity to boot them out after a few years, which makes them have to have at least some interest in doing whatever they were elected to do. Whether you like the German politician quoted or not, his is a pretty accurate summary of the long term goals of the EU. If you want to be governed by an EU president then fair play, I dont.
Agree completely re the politicians we get - but then it's pretty much the same at the EU level too (at least, in the sense that we can - or could - vote for MEPs, and vote them out).

One benefit of having so many differing voices (in the EU system) is that it's probably pretty hard for one extremist group to take charge. It's also harder for those with money to influence (as they'd have to influence so many different politicians in so many different countries). Case in point - Rupert Murdoch a few years ago claiming huge influence in UK politics, but a dislike of the EU because they didn't listen to him (read: he couldn't influence/bully/blackmail enough of them). As such (and certainly given recent governments in the UK) I'd struggle to see it would be worse for us to be governed by an EU president!
 

Fergie 307

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You’re a bit out of touch with French politics. Marine Le Penn (not Marie) is pro EU and pro Euro. Her FN party has moved to the centre right after the 2017 election loss (Macron’s LREM party won on a pro EU with deeper ties to Brussels ticket) and is viewed as republican, as opposed to her father’s nationalist far right views, views for which his daughter expelled him from the party.
And you're not at all suspicious that their apparent change of heart might just be a political ploy to make them more appealing, after all everyone was taken a bit by surprise by Macron.
 

Phil Pascoe

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... Rupert Murdoch a few years ago claiming huge influence in UK politics, but a dislike of the EU because they didn't listen to him ...

He denied ever saying it, and there is no proof that he did.
 

sploo

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... Rupert Murdoch a few years ago claiming huge influence in UK politics, but a dislike of the EU because they didn't listen to him ...

He denied ever saying it, and there is no proof that he did.
Evening Standard link with quote:

He might not have said it; sure - but it's been reported a few times, and certainly he holds (or at least, held) huge power over UK politics (and much less so over the EU as a whole).

If he has denied saying it, it would be a great irony for the owner of the Sun to be upset about false reporting from a newspaper wouldn't it?
 

Fergie 307

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Can I just ask you to clarify the reasons why?
Because whilst I am all for co operation between our countries, in trade, security and all manner of other things that are mutually beneficial, I don't see why that should have to involve a central government. I believe that we had reached the stage where the EU was already too powerful, and it's ambition is to seek ever more power. I don't believe we need to go in that direction to preserve co operation. I firmly believe that all countries should retain their independence. The ideal of the EU seems increasingly to bring all the participating nations under one central government, which I think is both unworkable and wrong. Since they have resisted all meaningful reform we were left with a choice. Stay and accept ever increasing interference, and the long term possibility of central rule, or leave. I believe we made the right choice. Was it ever going to be a walk in the park, no. Anyone who believed that was incredibly naive. However the reality is that the vast majority of the countries in the world are not members of the EU, and, shock horror, don't appear to be destitute as a result, so the idea that we have somehow cast ourselves into the wilderness is just nonsense. It will take time, and there will be pain but in the long term I think everything will get sorted out, including our relationship with the EU. We will all want to sell each other the same stuff we did before and I'm quite sure that in time commerce will trump politics and ways will be found. Let's not forget we have always bought far more from them than they have from us, that is simple fact and they will naturally want to keep doing so. I can't see the likes of VAG for example sitting on their hands whilst their products take a hit In one of their biggest markets, this would be insane. Hopefully it won't be too long before we can get over the stupid political posturing on both sides, and start sorting out the practicalities of how this is actually going to work. The EU, like some remainers, have to accept what has happened and get over it, the alternative is that they will end up cutting off their nose to spite their face.
In the meantime we can pursue trade with the rest of the world free from the constraints of the EU. There are big opportunities, especially when you consider that emerging economies like India are places where we already have close ties.
 

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I can here the cogs whirring ....................
Input, input, press buttons .................... repeat repeat repeat.

Exterminate exterminate exterminate.
 

jcassidy

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Actually I'm quoting Wolfgang Schaeuble. Just because you object to the source it doesn't make what he said matter less.
Schauble is a hawk and represents a minority view within Germany - a powerful minority, nonetheless. There is a reason why he has never managed to make it as Chancellor, despite having been around since the Kohl era. If I recall correctly, he's been forced to resign a time or two over various dubious dealings but has always managed to claw his way back into the centre. Check his wikipedia page! :)

I would just as easily find some quotes from other powerful German politicians advocating a less intrusive EU, the Bavarians for example are a powerful block and are very leery of Berlin having any say in what happens in Munich, never mind Brussels. Soder, for example, wanted Greece out of the EU, didn't want the Romanians in, and is totally against the idea of greater fiscal co-operation.
 

doctor Bob

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Resigned a time or two, sounds like a normal politician.
The only time it seems to cause damage to your career is if you have ladies tights on, a corset and are trussed up like a turkey.
 
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