Box Sash Renovation

[Chip shop]

OK, this is a bit boring, but it is something that others might learn from.

Got to site this morning for a cut out, replace and paint job and found something that highlights the problems of oak cills. Oak don't take paint well. It's a box sash window made of pine, with an oak cill which is buggered. As a result the pulley stiles are goosed also.




Chip off the plaster inside:



Break apart the window by prizing away the staff bead and parting bead with a chisel (they're only nailed into place, so don't worry breaking stuff). You should end up with something like this:



Back in the workshop I mark out...badly:



Make the housings for the pulley stiles(these will be wedged into place)...



Then get to work on the cill.

 

[biskit]

Bringing back fond memories. Hope you boarded up the opening before you left the job.? More please.

 

[Jacob]

OK, this is a bit boring, but it is something that others might learn from.

Got to site this morning for a cut out, replace and paint job and found something that highlights the problems of oak cills. Oak don't take paint well. It's a box sash window made of pine, with an oak cill which is buggered. As a result the pulley stiles are goosed also.......

Done a few of those over the years! I've sometimes found wormy or rotten oak cills but with the stiles still in perfect condition - showing how much more durable redwood is.
I wonder of oak cills would fare better with linseed oil paints? Modern paints are hopeless for trad restoration work.

 

[Chip shop]

Bringing back fond memories. Hope you boarded up the opening before you left the job.? More please.

Yup, all boarded up with a very attractive sheet of OSB. There certainly is more to come.

 

[Chip shop]

OK, this is a bit boring, but it is something that others might learn from.

Got to site this morning for a cut out, replace and paint job and found something that highlights the problems of oak cills. Oak don't take paint well. It's a box sash window made of pine, with an oak cill which is buggered. As a result the pulley stiles are goosed also.......

Done a few of those over the years! I've sometimes found wormy or rotten oak cills but with the stiles still in perfect condition - showing how much more durable redwood is.
I wonder of oak cills would fare better with linseed oil paints? Modern paints are hopeless for trad restoration work.

It's a good question. I've used linseed oil paint predominantly for the last few years (on your advice as it happens!), but the pain is the availability. I've had some on order for over a week and nothing has turned up. I used to get it off a firm called Holkham(sp?). The only stuff I can find now is from an outfit called 'Precious Earth' who I always imagine sitting 'round a camp fire, smoking weed and poring pigment into a cast iron cauldron. Where do you get your paint from?

 

[mikefab]

I will be following this with interest too as I am currently making my own first sliding sash window for our kitchen although there are many more restorations and replacements to follow. Box frame is done and the sashes will follow soonish.

I have a couple of old joinery books, one from the the early part of the 20th century and one from around WW2 and both (I think) state that oak cills are used on 'better quality work'. The books are on loan to someone so I can't make a better citation than that... Time obviously didn't bear that theory out though!

 

[Chip shop]

I will be following this with interest too as I am currently making my own first sliding sash window for our kitchen although there are many more restorations and replacements to follow. Box frame is done and the sashes will follow soonish.

I have a couple of old joinery books, one from the the early part of the 20th century and one from around WW2 and both (I think) state that oak cills are used on 'better quality work'. The books are on loan to someone so I can't make a better citation than that... Time obviously didn't bear that theory out though!

Woodworking books are great, but they represent an opinion of a geezer who was perhaps slightly distanced from house bashing. Experience has taught me(and my Dad as it goes) that hardwood cills are bobbins. Pretty much all my stuff is done in U/S redwood.

Anyhow; I managed to get the pockets cut this morning, before people turned up to talk at me.

 

[Jacob]

OK, this is a bit boring, but it is something that others might learn from.

Got to site this morning for a cut out, replace and paint job and found something that highlights the problems of oak cills. Oak don't take paint well. It's a box sash window made of pine, with an oak cill which is buggered. As a result the pulley stiles are goosed also.......

Done a few of those over the years! I've sometimes found wormy or rotten oak cills but with the stiles still in perfect condition - showing how much more durable redwood is.
I wonder of oak cills would fare better with linseed oil paints? Modern paints are hopeless for trad restoration work.

It's a good question. I've used linseed oil paint predominantly for the last few years (on your advice as it happens!), but the pain is the availability. I've had some on order for over a week and nothing has turned up. I used to get it off a firm called Holkham(sp?). The only stuff I can find now is from an outfit called 'Precious Earth' who I always imagine sitting 'round a camp fire, smoking weed and poring pigment into a cast iron cauldron. Where do you get your paint from?

It's swedish "Allback" brand paint which Holkham Hall marketed under their own name but now sold elsewhere under both names I think. Should be no prob.
I wish I'd known about it years ago - I've seen bits of my work looking really shoddy after a few years under modern paints. It's all very well blaming the decorator but I'd rather the stuff stayed in good nick!

Theres loads of stuff about it on the net e.g. http://www.countrylife.co.uk/property/g ... paint-8342
The big issue was the use of lead which is banned. The assumption was that it was the lead which gave trad paint longevity but that has now changed, it's the linseed oil which gets the credit and trad paint comes back in from the cold.

 

[HOJ]

Following with interest, been asked to price up to restore/replace 5 windows, not sure how to though, without going on Day work.

Would Accoya not be a good choice of wood to use?

 

[Chip shop]

Following with interest, been asked to price up to restore/replace 5 windows, not sure how to though, without going on Day work.

Would Accoya not be a good choice of wood to use?

Don't really know much about Accoya. As I've mentioned above my stuff is Joinery grade redwood (Scots Pine). It works well, takes paint pretty well, is readily available and it seems to have been used by the old lads (who knew a hell of a lot more about woodworking than me).

As far as pricing goes (not sure if talking about pricing is acceptable - MODS please edit if necessary); if I was to re-make this window, including for ripping out, making, priming, fitting, glazing and making good I would charge £1450 + vat. Maybe I'd stick a £100 contingency depending on the customer. This is assuming I can re-use the pulleys and latches, if not these get added at cost plus 30%. I guess all this will depend on the geographical area. Remember the making good is as important to the customer as the window. Always allow for some re-pointing, so a bag of lime or sand and cement. A bag of bonding, and obviously a bag of skim.

Finally, and if anyone is still with me I admire your sticking power :lol: allow for working upstairs. This might sound ridiculous, but it's become a pet hate of mine. Especially when the customer has had a new white stair carpet fitted and you end up traipsing up and down stairs spending more time adjusting dust sheets than you do actually fitting.

 

[biskit]

Still with you budd, (hammer) working along with you. Wish I could have charged those kind of prices. :mrgreen:

 

[HOJ]

Appreciate your honesty, I am concerned that I may get the pricing so wrong on a renovation proposition,
repair sashes, replace all the sills, replace all cords, re putty all the glass, replace staff beads etc etc.

Making a new replacement isn't an issue for pricing as I would expect to charge similar numbers.

The Accoya option, if required, has been agreed as I have not long ago made some standard casement windows for the same customer.

3 upstairs, 2 down, thankfully no white carpets to contend with.

Geographical, no problem 1 mile from home and 1 mile from workshop, from the opposite direction.

 

[Chip shop]

First up, work with a material you're comfortable with. Accoya might be the best thing since sliced bread, but if a customer asked me to do a job in material that I hadn't worked with before...I'd tell 'em where to stick it. I know about windows and they don't.

You're the tradesman, it's your job to tell them how it should be done.

EDIT: Sorry that post made me sound like a dick. Beading should take no longer than 15 minutes at the spindle and my mate does all the glazing.

5 sashes = 8500 ish. Hope this helps

 

[rhrwilliams]

Keep this thread going, looking forward to seeing the box sash made. Ive made sashes but not the box so interested in this one.

 

[Chip shop]

Keep this thread going, looking forward to seeing the box sash made. Ive made sashes but not the box so interested in this one.

Yeah sorry, this got put on hold due to other repair work after the bad weather. Hopefully it'll be getting fitted tomorrow. I'll post some more pics later.

 

[Chip shop]

I've been having the existing sashes re-glazed, and there's been roofing work to do, so this has been on the back burner.

Cut the head housings. I mark these off the inner cheeks of the cill housing then cut the pocket fillers. I make these really baggy, 'cos once they've expanded and they've had paint on them they're a pain in the arse to pry away. The parting bead grooves are done on the spindle with pocket covers taped in place



Next, I notch the cill to take the front lining:



Wedge the pulley stiles in. Make sure you cut the wedge shy of your linings.





Cut the mould for the front lining, I usually do a bit extra, incase I cock something up.



Finally, for tonight's episode, I cut the front lining, which should look something like this:

 

[Jacob]

I always did my own glazing. It's not difficult (after a few initial cock ups) and you get it done better than by most glaziers, particularly if you have 5mm rebates and don't want putty showing from the inside. Also means you can use old glass (nice shiny ripply effect) which in turn means you might also get away with the old weights.
It's a nice lazy and satisfying job to do in a warm workshop!
Useful tip - old pot of putty can be softened up with a quick blast in a microwave.

 

[Chip shop]

I always did my own glazing. It's not difficult (after a few initial cock ups) and you get it done better than by most glaziers, particularly if you have 5mm rebates and don't want putty showing from the inside. Also means you can use old glass (nice shiny ripply effect) which in turn means you might also get away with the old weights.
It's a nice lazy and satisfying job to do in a warm workshop!
Useful tip - old pot of putty can be softened up with a quick blast in a microwave.

Nice tip on the putty.

I'd agree with you, and I will do my own glazing if I have to, but my mate does really high end stained glass work. His cutting and glazing (and lead work where necessary) is so fast and neat it just makes sense to use him. Plus, he uses me for any timber work.

 

[Chip shop]

Right ho, here we go.

The excitement of cutting the mitres, rough cut then pare with a chisel.



Check the back and front for square:





Just the back linings and some beading and we're done.

 

[rhrwilliams]

This is great, pictures paint a thousand words and all that . Thanks for sharing.