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Joshjosh

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Hi I wondered if anyone could recommend a good book on external door construction, especially looking at solid timber construction, hardware choices and weather proofing.

Cheers Josh
 

Trevanion

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There really aren't any decent modern books on the subject from what I've been able to find. If you have any particular questions feel free to send me a message and I'll see if I can help you out.
 

johnnyb

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I agree manufacturers information is probably the best resource. but stuff like three point locks are best experienced in the flesh ie be familiar with normal mortice locks then try and fit a three point. I have to admit I do try and avoid modernity as much as possible! to truly buy in to it I think you have to use specific window/door tooling on the spindle. I have used a mix and match a bit like this door ie draughtstrip all round but a mortice sash and handle.
 

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Trevanion

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to truly buy in to it I think you have to use specific window/door tooling on the spindle.
I do a few doors with 3-point Tornado systems (I last counted about forty done this year so far, it gets a bit monotonous!) and a 16mm Euro groover is very handy when there are time constraints but if you're just doing it for yourself you can just simply run a 16mm groove for the face place and then follow through again with a 12mm groove for all the gubbins on the inside to pass. Of course, to run a door on a spindle you need a fairly stout spindle moulder with a powerfeed or an extra pair of hands to keep it flat and not make a butchery of it, working by yourself buying a router cutter from Wealden would be a far better option.
 

johnnyb

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the first three point i fitted turned into an epic! I turned up simply to "fit a couple of doors" I'd charged a good day price. I hung these huge faux oak monstrosities in about 2 hours. I was flying I said have you got the locks....thats when the problems started. I'd only got my souber jig. the first one took all day and was a complete pain. the second one was faster as the next day I got a 1/2 inch router. even assembling the handles was trial(every time not just the first time). I've noticed on doors with this stuff on the frames are also grooved to receive the catchplates.( the brand i fitted was yale and the catchplates were massive and extremely ugly)
I will have a go on the next job but I'll try and preprepare and use a better quality product( any suggestions trevanion)
 

johnnyb

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you also mention a euro groover that must be for a euro spindle? can you get one that "all in one" like a top hat?
draughtstrip I just use some brown aquamac(can't recall the number) stuff.
like a zed shape. what's your recommendations for improved draught seal? particularly on arched doors but all doors really.
 

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you also mention a euro groover that must be for a euro spindle? can you get one that "all in one" like a top hat?
draughtstrip I just use some brown aquamac(can't recall the number) stuff.
like a zed shape. what's your recommendations for improved draught seal? particularly on arched doors but all doors really.
125 x 16.3 x 30 mm Bore Euro Groove Head Aluminium

I use Aquamac 124 on the seat of the rebate, so that the door closes against it.
 

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I've just checked and it was aquamac 21 in the middle of the rebate. it worked fairly well in an arched door but on a square door 124 would seem a better thing. what is the application of all the types of strips?(21,109,63 and 124)
 

Trevanion

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124 you would use on the seat of a rebate like a mentioned above.
21 you would use on the face of a rebate or around a door/window as a wiping seal.
109 you would use where two pieces of joinery come together such as a bi-folding door.
63 is pretty much the same as 109.
 

johnnyb

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trevanion many thanks for taking the time to post. its much appreciated.and more informative than any book.
 

Joshjosh

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Thanks for all info guys, it's a shame there's not a decent book out there. I come from a site background so all my bench joinery is self taught. (The door in planning on building is for myself, not a client) I'm planning on a simple 4 panel door from accoya, haunched m+t and grove for the panels cut with my dado stack and profiles cut on a router table with an ovolo scribe set. Other than a draught seal rebated into the frame and a weather bar at the bottom of the door is there anything else I need to think about?.

Cheers
 

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Thanks for all info guys, it's a shame there's not a decent book out there. I come from a site background so all my bench joinery is self taught. (The door in planning on building is for myself, not a client) I'm planning on a simple 4 panel door from accoya, haunched m+t and grove for the panels cut with my dado stack and profiles cut on a router table with an ovolo scribe set. Other than a draught seal rebated into the frame and a weather bar at the bottom of the door is there anything else I need to think about?.
The doors with the worst and fastest rot I've seen have always been doors with panels that sit in a groove, grooves don't allow water to egress so the water will just sit in the grooves and work its way into the tenons. Most of the time my panels will sit in a rebate with about 3mm clearance all around, siliconed in place and will be beaded in from the outside, if water does get in it will egress under the beads rather than just stay in the door.

Alternatively, on a historic door with bolection and panel moulds I will run a 10x10mm groove around the middle of the panel space. This allows me to nail and glue some 10mm x 30mm square stock (my panels tend to be a hair less than 10mm on the thinnest point) into the grooves which stick out 20mm from the groove creating a rebate for either side of the door. The bolection moulds are rebated so that they rest on the face of the door and onto the square stock that has been placed into the door and stick about 10mm or more past the square stock creating a rebate for the panel to sit against, I then mitre, glue and nail the internal beads into place. Once the glue has dried I silicone the panel (Which is a hair thinner than the thickness of the 10mm square stock to allow it to move freely) into the rebate now made by the beading and nail the external beads on identically to the internal side. This allows the panel to float freely whilst allowing you to use the large mouldings without directly mounting them to the panel which restricts the float. Water will eventually get in over time but it will flow out under the beads, doors done this way will last far longer than groove paneled doors.

Of course, in Accoya, the issue wouldn't be so much the rot but the water getting behind and blistering off the paint.
 

bjm

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I'd look at the British Standards and the Building Regs. Last time I looked doors are becoming as regulated as windows. I seem to recall softwoods are no longer suitable in terms of security (Part Q) but you'll have to look it up for confirmation.
 

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I'd look at the British Standards and the Building Regs. Last time I looked doors are becoming as regulated as windows. I seem to recall softwoods are no longer suitable in terms of security (Part Q) but you'll have to look it up for confirmation.
Part Q only really comes into it with new builds, with historic buildings it doesn't apply as far as I'm aware.

The main things they require with Part Q and PAS 24 is that the door and surrounding lights have laminated glass, three-point locking systems, door chain, and secure hardware including letterplates.
 

Joshjosh

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The doors with the worst and fastest rot I've seen have always been doors with panels that sit in a groove, grooves don't allow water to egress so the water will just sit in the grooves and work its way into the tenons. Most of the time my panels will sit in a rebate with about 3mm clearance all around, siliconed in place and will be beaded in from the outside, if water does get in it will egress under the beads rather than just stay in the door.

Alternatively, on a historic door with bolection and panel moulds I will run a 10x10mm groove around the middle of the panel space. This allows me to nail and glue some 10mm x 30mm square stock (my panels tend to be a hair less than 10mm on the thinnest point) into the grooves which stick out 20mm from the groove creating a rebate for either side of the door. The bolection moulds are rebated so that they rest on the face of the door and onto the square stock that has been placed into the door and stick about 10mm or more past the square stock creating a rebate for the panel to sit against, I then mitre, glue and nail the internal beads into place. Once the glue has dried I silicone the panel (Which is a hair thinner than the thickness of the 10mm square stock to allow it to move freely) into the rebate now made by the beading and nail the external beads on identically to the internal side. This allows the panel to float freely whilst allowing you to use the large mouldings without directly mounting them to the panel which restricts the float. Water will eventually get in over time but it will flow out under the beads, doors done this way will last far longer than groove paneled doors.

Of course, in Accoya, the issue wouldn't be so much the rot but the water getting behind and blistering off the paint.
Thank you this is not even something I'd thought about, I'll go this route then, would you usually do through wedged tenons or non through tenons so the end grains but exposed? And any tips on what paint is best with accoya (I'd prefer water based if possible)
 

Trevanion

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For now!!! - It's a slippery slope :(
For most listed buildings and ones with important historic features, complying with Part Q just isn't feasible without ruining the traditional look of the building. I wouldn't worry too much about it, as I said it's mainly only applies for complete new builds.

Thank you this is not even something I'd thought about, I'll go this route then, would you usually do through wedged tenons or non through tenons so the end grains but exposed? And any tips on what paint is best with accoya (I'd prefer water based if possible)
I do through wedged tenons as I believe it's a far superior construction to blind mortices. I used to cut a saw cut down the tenons for the wedge but I've stopped doing this on Accoya as the timber is too fragile and the timber splits and cracks more readily than hardwood so I just put the wedges on the outside edges of the tenon which is how it would be traditionally done anyway.

On paint, I use Teknos Antistain Aqua 2901 for priming followed by Aquatop 2600 for top coat. This works very well in a spraying system but not so much brushing by hand as the consistency is rather slippery and gloopy compared to more traditional paint.
 

Joshjosh

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For most listed buildings and ones with important historic features, complying with Part Q just isn't feasible without ruining the traditional look of the building. I wouldn't worry too much about it, as I said it's mainly only applies for complete new builds.



I do through wedged tenons as I believe it's a far superior construction to blind mortices. I used to cut a saw cut down the tenons for the wedge but I've stopped doing this on Accoya as the timber is too fragile and the timber splits and cracks more readily than hardwood so I just put the wedges on the outside edges of the tenon which is how it would be traditionally done anyway.

On paint, I use Teknos Antistain Aqua 2901 for priming followed by Aquatop 2600 for top coat. This works very well in a spraying system but not so much brushing by hand as the consistency is rather slippery and gloopy compared to more traditional paint.
Amazing thanks for taking the time to give such detailed advice. I'll definitely be taking all your advice, I was planning on spraying it anyway so that paint sounds like a good choice.
Thanks again
Josh
 

bjm

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The doors with the worst and fastest rot I've seen have always been doors with panels that sit in a groove, grooves don't allow water to egress so the water will just sit in the grooves and work its way into the tenons. Most of the time my panels will sit in a rebate with about 3mm clearance all around, siliconed in place and will be beaded in from the outside, if water does get in it will egress under the beads rather than just stay in the door.
The last door I made was a replica to replace the door on a listed cottage. It was an interior door that had been cut down to the point it was falling apart-literally. Conservation officer was adamant it was historic (I reckon from around 1980!) and would only allow me to increase door thickness and width of stiles (so the door lock would sit within it) I see the door regularly and, as you say, the trapped water that sits in the panel grooves has already badly stained the door. This could have been designed out but the CO insisted on a near-exact replica in every detail!!
 

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