Best way to haggle over timber?

[YorkshireMartin]

I can't help feeling like I'm being shafted whenever I buy timber. I guess in the great scheme of things I buy very little, but even so, each purchase is several hundred pounds. I'm still a hobby user and even if I make it into my ultimate fantasy scenario of being able to sell pieces, I doubt I'd be considered a volume customer.

It feels like to haggle, I have to find fault with the product. I can find faults with any piece of stock, so not sure that will work as it's factored in.

Is there a trick to this or is it a case of building up a long term relationship with a supplier and sending a christmas card every year?

 

[mikefab]

Have you got any comparable prices to determine whether you actually are being shafted? You could always phone a couple of suppliers to get an idea of pricing.

The only way I have found to reduce the volumetric price is to buy a decent quantity!

 

[Trigs]

I guess it depends who your buying from, a large chain is gonna be less likely to deal for cash, I found a good guy who works for himself, he knows I don't buy big quantities or even very frequently but we have a good chat and it kills 20 mins, I buy up what he doesn't sell to his regular customers and put in the occasional custom order and its win win. Have a hunt around even if you have to do a bit if driving now and then

 

[custard]

Interesting question.

Personally I never haggle. I'm looking for exceptional timbers, and the volumes I buy will never make a timber yard rich. So I pretty much do the opposite of haggling. I bend over backwards to cultivate good relationships with potential suppliers, knowing that they can easily live without my business. I show them drawings of planned pieces, maquettes, photographs of finished pieces, I'll show them actual examples of smaller finished items that I've made, I drop by to have a coffee and a chat, I pass on their business cards to all and sundry and ask that other makers let the yard know it was me that recommended them.

I do all this in the hope that when they get those flawless boards of pure white, heavily rippled Sycamore; or receive that perfect boulle of Walnut; then they'll give me a call.

It's surprising how often they do, and then I'll drop what I'm doing, head over, and if it's as good as they say it is I'll pay the asking price without a murmur, I'll pay cash if they prefer, I'll arrange transport to minimise any disruption to them, I won't try and blag a freebie on the back of the order, I'll keep them posted on how their timber was used, and I'll make very sure they know that I appreciate their help.

The astonishing thing about the timber business is just how dysfunctional it is. Poor quality Walnut costs, say, £60 a cubic foot, decent quality is £80, but the once in a lifetime stuff won't be more than £90 or £100. It's as if a new Bentley sells for under twice the price of a used Ford Ka. Weird, but it's always been like that.

If on the other hand you're running a volume business on tight margins then I guess all that goes straight out of the window. You want useable, consistent, decent quality at the lowest possible price, end of!

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Have you got any comparable prices to determine whether you actually are being shafted? You could always phone a couple of suppliers to get an idea of pricing.

The only way I have found to reduce the volumetric price is to buy a decent quantity!

Comparing prices directly, seems to me to be incredibly difficult, if not impossible. If you're making furniture you can't really just call and ask for a price based on cubic ft. It's safe to say,
some merchants get by on supplying utter crap. God only knows to whom, but they do. That fact alone pisses me off. I'm talking cupped beyond recognition plywood or MDF sheets, awful twistycupped larch/spruce/*******wood and everything else, in the worst grade possible. I suppose the concept is similar to how poundshops survive (except poundshops often have useful products!). Yep, suffice to say my experience of the timber industry thus far has made me lump them into the same category as door to door double glazing salesmen from the 80's.

Phoning around tends to put me in contact with a bloke who I get the distinct impression from his attitude, was interrupted whilst watching an adult movie or at least was an expert in performing the appropriate hand actions.

The only success I've had was in person, where an incredibly helpful warehouse guy literally could not do enough to help me, he got a direct tip and mention to the boss, rightly so too. That merchant worked, but I'm still getting charged top whack. Why SHOULD I get a discount? It would be a fair question. But in this day and age, any business who hopes to survive on what is effectively an RRP, is digging their own grave, especially on a commodity product against a potential repeat customer. Push comes to shove, I'll import quantity myself. Are they so stupid as to realise that their market isn't closed to new entrants with a bit of business sense and capital?

Overall, I'm not impressed with timber merchants. I have 20 years in business myself and I know what customer service looks like. I find their approach entirely alien and counter-intuitive to good business. This aint the 1800's.

Exceptions will exist, it's just finding them. I've found one so far, so I'm sticking with them for the moment.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Interesting question.

Personally I never haggle. I'm looking for exceptional timbers, and the volumes I buy will never make a timber yard rich. So I pretty much do the opposite of haggling. I bend over backwards to cultivate good relationships with potential suppliers, knowing that they can easily live without my business. I show them drawings of planned pieces, maquettes, photographs of finished pieces, I'll show them actual examples of smaller finished items that I've made, I drop by to have a coffee and a chat, I pass on their business cards to all and sundry and ask that other makers let the yard know it was me that recommended them.

I do all this in the hope that when they get those flawless boards of pure white, heavily rippled Sycamore; or receive that perfect boulle of Walnut; then they'll give me a call.

It's surprising how often they do, and then I'll drop what I'm doing, head over, and if it's as good as they say it is I'll pay the asking price without a murmur, I'll pay cash if they prefer, I'll arrange transport to minimise any disruption to them, I won't try and blag a freebie on the back of the order, I'll keep them posted on how their timber was used, and I'll make very sure they know that I appreciate their help.

The astonishing thing about the timber business is just how dysfunctional it is. Poor quality Walnut costs, say, £60 a cubic foot, decent quality is £80, but the once in a lifetime stuff won't be more than £90 or £100. It's as if a new Bentley sells for under twice the price of a used Ford Ka. Weird, but it's always been like that.

If on the other hand you're running a volume business on tight margins then I guess all that goes straight out of the window. You want useable, consistent, decent quality at the lowest possible price, end of!

I can't possibly comment on your situation, but I sympathise with it. It's definitely dysfunctional on many levels. I'm left wondering why that is the case.

The price per cu ft, I do understand, I think. It's because no matter what grade, it has the exact same processing and there is an enormous supply available. Grade adds a certain percentage, but not significant. Similar perhaps, to a prestige car with 10k miles on it vs. 30k miles. Theres a difference in the retail price, but not as much as you'd think.

Personally, having been involved in volume businesses, box shifting, I think that discount model belongs in the stone age. It's a relic of the 1970's. Current volume has absolutely nothing to do with potential. It's so utterly short sighted for firms to do volume discounts for the current big players in retail, whilst making the small fish suck up the difference. They just don't seem to realise that it only takes one innovation for the small fish to become the boss and start dictating prices.

Not everyone went to business school. It's like a lot of people just go in completely blind to what actually makes a long term sustainable business with solid margins. As I've always said, I dont make the business, my customers do.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I just realised my original question is basically like pissing into the wind. I should probably have realised that before, however it's good to know I'm not alone in this feeling!

 

[doctor Bob]

Personally, having been involved in volume businesses, box shifting, I think that discount model belongs in the stone age. It's a relic of the 1970's. Current volume has absolutely nothing to do with potential. It's so utterly short sighted for firms to do volume discounts for the current big players in retail, whilst making the small fish suck up the difference. They just don't seem to realise that it only takes one innovation for the small fish to become the boss and start dictating prices.

Not everyone went to business school. It's like a lot of people just go in completely blind to what actually makes a long term sustainable business with solid margins. As I've always said, I dont make the business, my customers do.

Being a volume buyer I would be most disgruntled if you paid the same price as me for your timber. One simple phone call and my yard has £2500 worth of timber sold, I very rarely reject timber as I know how and have the opportunity to utilise it if it has defects. A buyer like yourself probably rips the yard apart for an hour looking for the perfect board, one of the yard guys is tied up for an hour, and you spend £50.

 

[devonwoody]

Timber merchants also have a problem, they are buying large quantities unseen from all over the world ??????

I bet they get some nasty surprises as well?

 

[No skills]

I kinda agree with Bob, why be in business if every Tom dick and Harry can buy the same stuff for the same price and undercut you on every job (because you have business over heads and he works in his garden ).

Having said that I'd like to go and look round Bob's offcut/reject stacks

 

[kdampney]

There used to be a small (I'm talking the downstairs of a terraced house) timber shop near us, in suburban Leicester, and I never realised how valuable and unusual that was until a few years after he closed.

When I first went to a large timber yard, I had no idea what I was doing, felt like I was talking a different language, and loaded my car up with 4 expensive boards which I didn't get to choose, when everyone else was filling up flat bed trucks. If they are to charge domestic/hobby customers more than trade, then perhaps there should be the expectation that they will treat newbies like YorkshireMartin's 'incredibly helpful warehouse guy'. If anyone has any suggestions of these kinds of places in/near the East Midlands, please let me know!

But we can't expect VIP treatment, pick nice boards out of a selection, and then pay trade prices.

 

[MIGNAL]

Interesting question.

Personally I never haggle. I'm looking for exceptional timbers, and the volumes I buy will never make a timber yard rich. So I pretty much do the opposite of haggling. I bend over backwards to cultivate good relationships with potential suppliers, knowing that they can easily live without my business. I show them drawings of planned pieces, maquettes, photographs of finished pieces, I'll show them actual examples of smaller finished items that I've made, I drop by to have a coffee and a chat, I pass on their business cards to all and sundry and ask that other makers let the yard know it was me that recommended them.

I do all this in the hope that when they get those flawless boards of pure white, heavily rippled Sycamore; or receive that perfect boulle of Walnut; then they'll give me a call.

It's surprising how often they do, and then I'll drop what I'm doing, head over, and if it's as good as they say it is I'll pay the asking price without a murmur, I'll pay cash if they prefer, I'll arrange transport to minimise any disruption to them, I won't try and blag a freebie on the back of the order, I'll keep them posted on how their timber was used, and I'll make very sure they know that I appreciate their help.

The astonishing thing about the timber business is just how dysfunctional it is. Poor quality Walnut costs, say, £60 a cubic foot, decent quality is £80, but the once in a lifetime stuff won't be more than £90 or £100. It's as if a new Bentley sells for under twice the price of a used Ford Ka. Weird, but it's always been like that.

If on the other hand you're running a volume business on tight margins then I guess all that goes straight out of the window. You want useable, consistent, decent quality at the lowest possible price, end of!

Was that figured Walnut £100 per cu.ft.? If so, I'll have some!

 

[RobinBHM]

The larger timber merchants for hardwood would be dealing mostly with phone or email orders. Joinery shops or cabinetmaking shops will be buying for delivery mostly apart from the specialist makers.

Most merchants are not set up for dealing with counter sales and they dont have yards designed for looking around. Most timber yards have sideloaders buzzing around all day, so not a safe environment.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Personally, having been involved in volume businesses, box shifting, I think that discount model belongs in the stone age. It's a relic of the 1970's. Current volume has absolutely nothing to do with potential. It's so utterly short sighted for firms to do volume discounts for the current big players in retail, whilst making the small fish suck up the difference. They just don't seem to realise that it only takes one innovation for the small fish to become the boss and start dictating prices.

Not everyone went to business school. It's like a lot of people just go in completely blind to what actually makes a long term sustainable business with solid margins. As I've always said, I dont make the business, my customers do.

Being a volume buyer I would be most disgruntled if you paid the same price as me for your timber. One simple phone call and my yard has £2500 worth of timber sold, I very rarely reject timber as I know how and have the opportunity to utilise it if it has defects. A buyer like yourself probably rips the yard apart for an hour looking for the perfect board, one of the yard guys is tied up for an hour, and you spend £50.

I totally appreciate what you're saying and wouldn't want to harm small businesses, but there are other ways of rewarding loyalty or larger accounts. Not that it's likely, but if Amazon suddenly decided to get involved in the timber trade, they would be selling the raw materials at below your buy price, but would it really affect your business that much? It's not like a merchant selling me cheap timber will suddenly give me your high level of skill, experience or production facilities. Isn't that what your customers are really buying?

Trade pricing solely by volume is a really dated model and it's showing, as the reach of the biggest retailers extends further and further. A glance at any UK high street will show the effects of volume pricing discounts. It's not the craftsmen that are at risk initially, its their supply chain partners, the merchants.

Regarding undercutting by every Tom, Dick or Harry, yes it can happen but they generally don't last long and to have this be a real worry, the industry you operated in would have to have very low barriers to entry. It's more of a problem in reselling, which is very tough marketplace in almost all sectors. Quality furniture making certainly doesn't have low barriers to entry and any less than quality puts you up against Ikea, which probably wouldn't end well.

We lost customers due to undercutting by one man band bedroom operations, but they came back eventually, almost without exception, due to customer care being our priority. With products such as furniture or kitchens, there is even more of an opportunity to set yourself apart from the crowd, because so many do it badly! It's one of the reasons why Amazon has been so successful, they understand customer care. That's the real value proposition and where the long term profit is.

I'm not saying I'm right, it's just a point of view.

 

[custard]

Was that figured Walnut £100 per cu.ft.? If so, I'll have some!

The figured ABW?

That was priced at standard ABW £75-80 a cubic foot in a small yard, so I bought all the two and a half logs available. The same yard gave me first crack at some fantastic heavily rippled English Walnut, again at the standard market price.

Here's another example of how daft timber yard pricing can be. English walnut is notorious for being shot through with shakes, it's usually sold as "shakes no fault", so when I found an entire log of flawless beautiful stuff like this in a tiny, rural timber yard I bought the entire log and paid the full asking price, £65 a cube.

There's some amazing wood out there, putting the effort in to tracking it down makes no sense for a volume business, but for a smaller maker it instantly differentiates your furniture from anything and everything else that's available. If I get a bargain that's great, but if I pay a bit over the odds for something spectacular that's okay too.

 

[AJB Temple]

Very interesting post. I like Custard's approach very much.

When I buy wood it is usually oak and usually a bulk order of around £3,500 plus VAT. I get good prices on this and I haggle by saying what I can afford to pay and asking if they can do that or get close to it. If I am buying bits and pieces, I try to accumulate them into a decent sized order and use it as a relationship builder. I am happy to take wood into stock that I will use sometime in the future though.

I do find the small timber yards a bit disorganised as business people. This can be an advantage and sometimes a disadvantage. My main oak supplier fixes me up with excellent wood and he delivers. However, he is often late - sometimes by weeks!

 

[custard]

Here are some other wonderful boards that are currently sitting in my timber shed,

Big wide boards of Rio Rosewood & first growth Indian Rosewood,

Tiger Oak, the definitive English timber, if you're an expat in Singapore or New York why wouldn't you want some English Arts & Craft pieces made from this fantastic stuff to remind you of home?

Big wide boards of Fiddleback Maple,

Or, for maximum timber bling, Quilted Maple,

English, rippled, Olive Ash. Two book matched boards laid out for a unique table top,

Heavily figured Swiss Pear Wood,

Curly Cherry, if you want Shaker Style but with a very special twist,

 

[MIGNAL]

I'm surprised the quarter sawn figured stuff doesn't find it's way to the specialist musical instrument suppliers. Walnut isn't as expensive as many of the exotics but it would carry a premium for Walnut, either ABW or English. Then again Walnut isn't in as great demand as something like E.I. Rosewood, which might explain it.

 

[custard]

I'm surprised the quarter sawn figured stuff doesn't find it's way to the specialist musical instrument suppliers. Walnut isn't as expensive as many of the exotics but it would carry a premium for Walnut, either ABW or English. Then again Walnut isn't in as great demand as something like E.I. Rosewood, which might explain it.

Yes, that's a good point. The only timber yard I regularly visit that takes luthier's supplies seriously is Timberline. I often rib Bob, the owner, that none of his luthier stock ever seems to shift, he's never given me a straight answer but I suspect that turnover really is pretty slow and he does it more for love than money. So I don't actually know, but I think that the UK distribution pipeline for luthier woods is pretty well jam packed and none of the players are all that desperate to acquire yet more stock. It's a slightly different story for the veneer trade, I believe that most of the veneer grade trees get syphoned off very very early in the distribution system, and if logs escape that first grading cycle then they tend not to be subsequently transported back to the veneer merchants, plus of course there's the hundreds of tiny timber mills in this country who wouldn't know a veneer merchant from Adam. I was once in a one man and a dog rural mill that had the only log of Rippled English Oak I've ever seen, when I arrived they were just about to cut it into fence posts!

Incidentally, I'm surprised when I look at luthier Rosewoods at how poor is the quality of most of the stuff I see offered for sale. I've been buying Rosewood for the best part of forty years now and have salted away some incredible stuff, but the really first grade material seems to be largely exhausted with CITES preventing any more arriving. There's plenty of Indonesian grown Sonokeling Rosewood still coming through, it's nice enough but it just doesn't have the heft or the lustre of the original Indian Rosewood.

Here's a snap of some original growth Indian Rosewood, some prime quality Rio Rosewood, and some current Sonokeling that hints at the difference.

Are there luthier suppliers for Rosewoods that I'm just missing? I'm interested because I don't know if the UK leaving the EU might mean my stocks of Rosewoods are then prohibited from ever being sold onto the continent? The top prices I've been offered for prime Rosewood in the past have tended to come from German luthier suppliers, so I might only have a finite amount of time if I decide to sell some boards on.

 

[transatlantic]

I only purchase small amounts of timber (£100 or so), due to lack of space. I've never thought about trying to haggle, mostly because the places I've been to, as soon as I give them an idea of the size of order, I immediatley get the sense they feel it's not worth their while, and want to hurry the sale along.

Which is fair enough I guess if the margins are small, and the place is busy. If not though, it does just boil down to bad customer service. As someone else pointed out, someone who buys small today, could potentially be a big customer one day.

This is why I feel a lot more comfortable buying from the box stores when I can. You don't get any of that crap. Much better customer service.

It's rather sad.