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Rikyrik81

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Hi guys,
Ive made a mistake of using pva from work to glue up a few walnut coffee tables im making on the side, not sure off hand what we use, its for general joinery use, ive had nothing but trouble with the glue joints coming apart at the ends of the tops and opening up along the joints, im now going to cut the tops along the joints and rejoin them at this late stage (after first coat of finish)..anyway
Im wanting a better quality glue i can trust for walnut and general cabinet making all internal.
Was thinking titebond original?
 

memzey

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TB is a good pva as far as my experience goes. For walnut though I’d be tempted to use TB3 as it dries to a brown colour that more closely matches the wood. Has a longer open time as well. I suppose if you are confident in your clamping and that your joints will close up invisibly then it won’t make any difference but something to consider nonetheless.
 

AndyT

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I used Titebond Liquid Hide Glue when I made a side table out of walnut. It's my first choice for all furniture making. Advantages include a decent open time for stress free glue-ups, very easy clean up with a damp rag and full strength joints.
 

sunnybob

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Are you sure you made the surfaces flat and dry? I use a lot of walnut and ordinary D3 Bison glue without problems.
I also use titebond 3 because it has a longer set time when its hot (D3 becomes superglue at 35c) but titebond 3 does dry dark brown, and it will show if the glue line is across the walnut grain
 

MikeG.

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I would suspect that there was something wrong* with the PVA you used, because PVA is a wonderful wood glue.

*It can de-nature if the frost gets to it, for instance, and I've seen general purpose PVA go mouldy and separate after being stored for too long in a large tin.
 

Sgian Dubh

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Rikyrik81":y6zihjkg said:
Hi guys,
Ive made a mistake of using pva from work to glue up a few walnut coffee tables im making on the side, not sure off hand what we use, its for general joinery use, ive had nothing but trouble with the glue joints coming apart at the ends of the tops and opening up along the joints ...
Presumably all the joints in the general joinery you undertake at work also fail, because if the glue you use is the same in your joint failing table tops, then, logically, it probably fails in all other circumstances. If the joints assembled at your work using that glue don't fail, it seems to me possible that your edge preparation for the table tops might be at fault; this suspicion of mine is compounded by your description of the joint failure in your panels, i.e., the joints seemingly first open at the ends, and this opening then continues until the whole joint fails.

So, the question might be, 'How do you prepare your edge joints?' Slainte.
 

Rikyrik81

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Thanks for all your responses, its all been great advise.
I will definitely switch to TB and hopefully have great success and confidence in it. We use everbuild plus whatever my boss orders in, im not sure on specific type off the top of my head.
The glue is always fresh as we use alot, i maybe be painting a more dramatic picture than whats going on but as i work to a high standard a small amount is too much.
Yes Its not uncommon for glue joints to fail at work along the grain like a door panel, newel post, jamb etc im not talking about rail to style joints. I assumed the joints fail due to shrinkage of the timber used. It is supposed to be low on moisture content but I suspect its not as low as it should.

The way i glue up along the grain joints is to get the edges straight on a plainer ofc and in most cases biscuit joint, i like to glue both joining edges and allow for dry patches to occur then reapply and clamp up for at least12 hours. Ive never known a better method in 20plus years but open to suggestions.

The walnut is premium walnut from a decent supplier and i had further seasoned it for a few months indoors prior. The failure occurred after trimming top to length exposing fresh end grain.
 

Trevanion

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Rikyrik81":1jzl9ufd said:
The way i glue up along the grain joints is to get the edges straight on a plainer ofc and in most cases biscuit joint, i like to glue both joining edges and allow for dry patches to occur then reapply and clamp up for at least12 hours. Ive never known a better method in 20plus years but open to suggestions.
It's going to sound like a stupid suggestion and teaching to suck eggs etc... but how smooth is your cut straight off the planer? Do you have noticeable knife marks or tram lines or is it nice and totally smooth? Some people don't realise that you need to feed slowly over the planer to get nice edge joints and I've even heard self-professed "professionals" (glorified hobbists :lol:) say that the coarser knife marks interlock and it creates a better joint which is a load of nonsense. I suspect if you've got 20 years experience that won't be the case though.

I don't quite follow the glue up you described though, you allow the glue to dry a little on the work and then put more on? I've always applied the glue one face and clamped immediately and never really had any problems that I can remember. I do like to use Cascamite over PVA for something like that though, less creep during the glue up and a firmer, water proof hold.
 

Sgian Dubh

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Rikyrik81":2pu4c3ht said:
… Its not uncommon for glue joints to fail at work along the grain like a door panel, newel post, jamb etc im not talking about rail to style joints. I assumed the joints fail due to shrinkage of the timber used. It is supposed to be low on moisture content but I suspect its not as low as it should.
Firstly, both Everbuild brand D4 resin or their 526 resin, for example, are as good as any other brand of similar wood adhesive formulations. Everbuild supply a wide range of adhesives for various applications; I've used a decent range of their products and found them to be reliable, if used correctly.

Therefore, I think you can generally discount this adhesive brand as an issue with regards to joint failure at both your employer's business, and in your walnut table project, but, as is the case with all wood adhesives (except one) they only work with dry wood. By definition, dry means wood at, or below, 20% MC. So, yes, if your employer is using wood wetter than this to make joinery products such as doors, newel posts, windows, stairs, panelling, etc, which is highly unlikely I'd suggest, you can expect glue joint failure on a regular basis. If you are experiencing regular glue joint failures as you describe at your work, I strongly suggest you (or your company's quality controller) look at your work methods, and the quality of your wood prior to building your products.

On a side note, the only wood adhesives that work with wood wetter than 20% MC are the polyurethane adhesives, available from a range of manufacturers, including Everbuild.

Rikyrik81":2pu4c3ht said:
The way i glue up along the grain joints is to get the edges straight on a plainer ofc and in most cases biscuit joint, i like to glue both joining edges and allow for dry patches to occur then reapply and clamp up for at least12 hours. Ive never known a better method in 20plus years but open to suggestions.
Your edge preparation methodology seems to a bit hit and miss. How carefully do you check for a correctly formed edge after the boards come off the surface planer? Are there gaps at either end that have to be closed tightly, for example? If there are gaps at either end prior to the glue up, that's not good. Your adhesive application following your joint preparation is ... well, er, eccentric. You don't seem to follow the adhesive manufacturer's adhesive application guidelines for some reason. What's the strange double application of glue thing going on for? There's no need for it if the joint(s) is/are prepared properly in wood that's smooth and dry.

Finally, I'm rather wary, like Trevanion above, of being accused of trying to teach a fellow working woodworker how to suck eggs, but you might find some useful guidelines about edge joinery at this link to an article at my website. Slainte.
 

Rikyrik81

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Sorry i wasnt clear when i was explaining my glue up process, yes rest assured the edges are coming off the planer flat/straight/square/smooth then tested prior to glue up, when it comes to running an edge to be glued up over the planer depth of cut is at a minimum along with speed, could i call my self a joiner if it was anything less?
You could call me over caseous when it comes to glueing but thats my preferred method. When gluing edges i have noticed that the glue can get absorbed pretty quickly leaving dry spots so if only one face is glued then clamped right up the dry spots can develop when the faces are together and further exaggerated if only one edge is glued. I used to glue up laminated bows and if there was even a small dry spot the bow would fail. I would call it experience and being over cautious than erratic.
Rub joints work well but obviously not an option with biscuits.

We used to use nothing but cascamite back in the day but switched to waterproof pva for everything.
Cheers guys
 

Sgian Dubh

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Your problem with edge joint failures does seem to be a bit of a mystery. Assuming all else is correct, e.g., the edges marry up seamlessly I now can only think of two things that might be the cause, whilst also discounting the type of adhesive used, whether it be PVA, aliphatic resin, hide glue, urea formaldehyde, etc:

1. A bad batch of adhesive. This is possible; I've experienced it two, three or four times over the years with a couple of adhesive formulations. In my experience a bad batch of adhesive is extremely rare. But your report of (seemingly) fairly regular glue joint failures of one sort or another with your employer's projects does rather make me wonder why that is the case, even though you offered possible causes, e.g., wet wood and shrinkage coupled with 'poor' adhesive.

2. I do also wonder about your adhesive application procedure. PVA and aliphatic resin emulsion types generally require swift adhesive spreading followed by rapid application of pressure to create a strong bond. Like you, I quite often apply the adhesive to both surfaces of a joint, whether they be edge joints or other types, e.g., M&Ts, biscuit, dovetails, etc. But I get the stuff on as fast as possible, and aim to have the joint clamped up within five minutes or less, from the time I start applying the adhesive until the time I'm done.

Whilst I recognise the problem you're trying to avoid, the dry spots you mention, this seemingly double application procedure you undertake I suspect adds time to the job, and I wonder if what's happening is the first application of adhesive is partially cured before you can get your secondary infilling application in place, and the job clamped up, which can, or could, lead to a visible thickness of glue line. Visibly thick glue lines are a weakness. I can't recall the exact numbers offhand, but to create a strong glue joint with the emulsion glues you only need a film of glue between the wood parts somewhere in the region of three molecules thick, which is too thin to see with the naked eye. There is some very shallow absorption and incorporation of glue into the wood grain on either side of the joint, which is also a requirement for a strong joint.

So, perhaps the answer to your problem might be to just get the adhesive on quicker in the first place, and get enough on to prevent these 'dry spots' you describe even being a possibility, followed swiftly by clamping the job up. Slainte.
 

Phil Pascoe

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Sgian Dubh":3detkhdw said:
... I wonder if what's happening is the first application of adhesive is partially cured before you can get your secondary infilling application in place, and the job clamped up ...
That was how I read it. :D I assume you meant Everbuild 502? I use D4 and 502, brilliant stuff both of them.
 
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