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Fergie 307

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This was actually in breach of at least two treaties between eu/NATO and the Russian Federation. This is the root of why Russia has now resorted to "techniical means" to solve its perceived security issues. They tried for the last 8 years to get people to listen to them, but no one was interested.





This is actually not what happened. Russia not only didn't invade, but Russia refused to acknowledge the referendums asking to allow the two "breakaway republics" to join the Russian Federation. Why didn't Russia just bite off the east of the Ukraine then and there, when it was offered? The two areas declared independence because they didn't want to be ethnically cleansed - people were locked in buildings and then burnt to death, civilians were strafed by fighter jets at a market - little things that get forgotten. Russia didn't invade (although there were claims of "little green men", an invasion is what you are seeing now, not 8 years ago).

The west did a lot - they spend $5 billion on building up an armed insurrection that toppled the government. The USA in the guise of Victoria Newland is on record overturning the head of state, selecting which billionaire gangster would be the new king etc. Interestingly Victoria Newland is married to a Mr Kagan who's sister runs the think tank that the BBC and everyone else use as a source of expert knoledge: Institute for the Study of War Just to be clear, the West created the situation we are now in, purely for the purpose of "putting pressure" on Russia. 14,000 dead people later, Russia finally intervened only when it was clear that the Ukrainian government (pressured by the USA) were about to invade the Donbas, again purely to put pressure on Russia. In other words, we broke it, so we now get to own it.

The current conflict is entirely due to work done by the west. The Russians tried to resolve the issues, tried to get agreements, sponsored the two Minsk agreements. No one in the west had any intention of honouring these solutions because the plan was always for war.


Russia has confirmed repeatedly that they view this as an existential war. Biden has said that "Putin must go", and that Russia must be broken up (ie cease to exist). Russia (Putin himself) has explained that a world without Russia serves no purpose, so has no reason to exist. That was a hint. Are you sure you want that?

As mentioned in various places - fight to the last Ukrainian. This is now happening. Various estimates have Ukranian casualties at over 100,000 (more than the entire British army, for comparison). Most units seem to be 60%or more under strength, with the majority of soldiers on the line untrained new conscripts, who are dieing in droves. The Ukraine will be calling up women from October, and has just passed a law allowing conscription of disabled persons. Winning! What could possibly go wrong?

Here is an alternative view of how we got to where we are, and how: Jacques Baud: The Military Situation In The Ukraine - Update. - Labour Heartlands

be careful comrade you referred to what's going on in Ukraine as an invasion, whereas of course it is nothing of the kind.
Mr Putin has repeatedly said, blah blah. Just as he repeatedly assured everyone that he had no intention of invading Ukraine, and the troops massing on the border were on exercise. The man is a serial liar, easy to tell when he's doing it, just look to see if his mouth is open. He lies to his own people everyday, and presided over a regime where ANY dissent from.his narrative is ruthlessly supressed. How many casualties have the Russians sustained? No body knows for sure, and the Russian people certainly aren't being given accurate figures, I believe the current official line is that losses have been "'substantial". Not sure he will survive when the true figures start to emerge, or how he will suppress that information is He is pursuing the war in the most brutal way possible, deliberately targeting civilians in a massive scale. How you can be an apologist for this is quite beyond me, Are the rest of the world entirely blameless, no, who is. But Putin's actions far exceed anything that could be remotely justifiable.
 

Jacob

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.............
  • as a fairly wealthy country the UK can adapt to slower changes. "Slow" is context related - hard infrastructure may take (say) 25-100 years, agricultural output more easily flexed.
..........
The UK is already giving up adapting to slow change.
Trivial though it may seem but Fairbourne is the first conspicuous case. Coastal defences are being slowly abandoned in other areas too. Rising sea level beyond a certain point is impossible to fight.
OK this is a scary presentation but can't be ignored: Will London really be underwater by 2050?
Inland flood defence measures are being overwhelmed annually with repeat "100 year" events.
In the meantime people witter on about electric vehicles and batteries, which in the greater scheme of things are utterly irrelevant.
On a personal level, however improbable this seems, going vegetarian seems to be the single most useful thing you could do! Regenesis review: Farming is killing the planet but we can stop it
This is a message which won't go down well with the "unwoke" :LOL:
 

AlanY

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I AM a true lefty. What we DON'T need are the crooks and lying toads that comprise this present Government.
You would rather have the crooks and lying toads that comprised previous governments, then? How about that shining star of socialism that was Blair's Labour government? You know the one, it bankrupted the UK and took part in an illegal war that killed a million people and unleashed the islamic invasion from which Europe and, particularly, the UK suffer today (and will get progressively worse unless European Governments get to grips with this uncontrolled immigration). Or, perhaps, the Tory Government of John 'Curry [email protected]' Major? The one that took us into the EU without a Referendum and paved the way for Brexit. Or you might just have had a Labour Government led by a career protestor whose biggest achievement was to go for a beer with his IRA mates and to stand on a platform in support of Hamas terrorists. That he was wiped out by Boris (with all his faults already well known) tells you all you need to know about what the British public thought of that.

Whatever your personal political beliefs, you will never get a perfect government in a democracy. Because you cannot please all the people all the time and, in the end, politicians are all just power lusting, greedy bast*rd human beings, with human flaws. Terry Pratchett got it right in his 'Lost Continent' DiscWorld book, where the people of 'XXXX' immediately jailed their newly-elected PMs because it simply saved time.
 

Trainee neophyte

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be careful comrade you referred to what's going on in Ukraine as an invasion, whereas of course it is nothing of the kind.
Mr Putin has repeatedly said, blah blah. Just as he repeatedly assured everyone that he had no intention of invading Ukraine, and the troops massing on the border were on exercise. The man is a serial liar, easy to tell when he's doing it, just look to see if his mouth is open. He lies to his own people everyday, and presided over a regime where ANY dissent from.his narrative is ruthlessly supressed. How many casualties have the Russians sustained? No body knows for sure, and the Russian people certainly aren't being given accurate figures, I believe the current official line is that losses have been "'substantial". Not sure he will survive when the true figures start to emerge, or how he will suppress that information is He is pursuing the war in the most brutal way possible, deliberately targeting civilians in a massive scale. How you can be an apologist for this is quite beyond me, Are the rest of the world entirely blameless, no, who is. But Putin's actions far exceed anything that could be remotely justifiable.
It's all about narrative, isn't it. Putin is a tyrant, dictator and serial monster. Russia is poor, incompetent, disorganised and stupid. The Russian military is a failure. There is no democracy in Russia. All of these are known facts - reality has no bearing on any of it. You are living in a vacuum where only authorised narratives are presented. Anyone who goes against the agreed-upon version of truth is excoriated. The polls all show that Russians both fully support their government, and agree with the idea that the war is existential - that's their narrative, which you claim is false. Your narrative must be true, because?
 

Fergie 307

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Hear hear. And however much we may lament the self serving action of the likes of Boris and Blair, they are rank amateurs compared to Putin and his cronies. At least we are free to reveal their antics and take them to task, not always as effectively as we might like admittedly, and ultimately we can vote them out. So whilst our system is very far from perfect, it is infinitely preferable to many of the alternatives.
 

Fergie 307

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It's all about narrative, isn't it. Putin is a tyrant, dictator and serial monster. Russia is poor, incompetent, disorganised and stupid. The Russian military is a failure. There is no democracy in Russia. All of these are known facts - reality has no bearing on any of it. You are living in a vacuum where only authorised narratives are presented. Anyone who goes against the agreed-upon version of truth is excoriated. The polls all show that Russians both fully support their government, and agree with the idea that the war is existential - that's their narrative, which you claim is false. Your narrative must be true, because?
Russians fully support their government? So why have they imprisoned thousands for protesting against the war, sorry "special military operation"? Why does any country who's people are fully supportive of the government need laws forbidding dissent ? I could go on but you really need to take your head out of the sand.
 

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Your post reminds me that until recently you described yourself as Putin Apologist (or similar).

I’m sure Russia feels wronged that NATO and the EU have expanded. At the end of the day though democratically elected governments decided they wanted to join the EU and NATO presumably as they didn’t like the look of an increasingly undemocratic Russia.

I don’t understand what Russia fears about it’s neighbours deciding their own destiny to the point of being willing to turn them into rubble. Perhaps it’s that their ruling elite would prefer to keep living in a country that doesn’t have free elections or free speech.
The narrative is that Putin (not Russia, but dictator Putin who rules with an iron fist and makes all decisions) woke up one day and randomly invaded the Ukraine without any rhyme or reason. Even you must understand that this is complete nonsense, but it is peddled every day by the media and politicians: "the illegal and unprovoked attack" is used at every turn. It is neither illegal nor unprovoked, but don't let reality get in the way of a good bit of propaganda. I watch the BBC from time to time, and the outright lies and insistence on portraying Kiev propaganda as truth is astonishing. So many things are 180 degrees from reality.

Getting back on topic, if they lie about the source, reason and course of this war in the Ukraine, what else have they lied about? Covid? Climate change? The impending financial meltdown that "no one could have seen coming"?

I think it is time to let the thread get back on topic - just remember that in 1944/5 Germany the glorious victories were won with each just a little closer to Berlin. Kiev is running a similar campaign.
 

Fergie 307

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The narrative is that Putin (not Russia, but dictator Putin who rules with an iron fist and makes all decisions) woke up one day and randomly invaded the Ukraine without any rhyme or reason. Even you must understand that this is complete nonsense, but it is peddled every day by the media and politicians: "the illegal and unprovoked attack" is used at every turn. It is neither illegal nor unprovoked, but don't let reality get in the way of a good bit of propaganda. I watch the BBC from time to time, and the outright lies and insistence on portraying Kiev propaganda as truth is astonishing. So many things are 180 degrees from reality.

Getting back on topic, if they lie about the source, reason and course of this war in the Ukraine, what else have they lied about? Covid? Climate change? The impending financial meltdown that "no one could have seen coming"?

I think it is time to let the thread get back on topic - just remember that in 1944/5 Germany the glorious victories were won with each just a little closer to Berlin. Kiev is running a similar campaign.
So you believe one of Putin's excuses, that this was a pre emotive strike to forestall an intended Ukranian invasion of Russia? Words fail me. You need to pop the collander back on your head and retreat back to your foil lined room. And to compare what is going on in Ukraine now with the sacrifice made by the Soviet Union fighting Hitler is frankly insulting to those involved, shame on you for that remark.
 

Keith Cocker

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Your post reminds me that until recently you described yourself as Putin Apologist (or similar).

I’m sure Russia feels wronged that NATO and the EU have expanded. At the end of the day though democratically elected governments decided they wanted to join the EU and NATO presumably as they didn’t like the look of an increasingly undemocratic Russia.

I don’t understand what Russia fears about it’s neighbours deciding their own destiny to the point of being willing to turn them into rubble. Perhaps it’s that their ruling elite would prefer to keep living in a country that doesn’t have free elections or free speech.
My daughter in law is from the Czech Republic. She, and even more so her parents, remember life under the shadow of the Soviet Union. No way would they wish to return to that.
 

Jacob

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It's all about narrative, isn't it. Putin is a tyrant, dictator and serial monster. Russia is poor, incompetent, disorganised and stupid. The Russian military is a failure. There is no democracy in Russia. All of these are known facts - reality has no bearing on any of it. You are living in a vacuum where only authorised narratives are presented. Anyone who goes against the agreed-upon version of truth is excoriated. The polls all show that Russians both fully support their government, and agree with the idea that the war is existential - that's their narrative, which you claim is false. Your narrative must be true, because?
Repeating myself, Nato threat just an excuse:
."......alternative narrative more convincing; that Putin, a crazed dictator in his dying days, is having megalomaniac fantasies about reclaiming the lost Russian empire of Peter the Great."

There have been several confirmations of this - from Putin himself
Putin and Peter the Great: Russian leader likens himself to 18th Century tsar

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...t-in-comparing-ukraine-war-to-imperial-russia
and from Fiona Hill the great Russian expert



Anybody who doesn't think he is raving mad only has to look at his tables! Surprised there hasn't been more comment on this woodworking forum!

 

Blackswanwood

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The narrative is that Putin (not Russia, but dictator Putin who rules with an iron fist and makes all decisions) woke up one day and randomly invaded the Ukraine without any rhyme or reason. Even you must understand that this is complete nonsense, but it is peddled every day by the media and politicians: "the illegal and unprovoked attack" is used at every turn. It is neither illegal nor unprovoked, but don't let reality get in the way of a good bit of propaganda. I watch the BBC from time to time, and the outright lies and insistence on portraying Kiev propaganda as truth is astonishing. So many things are 180 degrees from reality.

I don‘t see that as the “narrative”. Putin didn’t just wake up one day and decide to go to war - it’s part a long term strategy to secure his and his inner circles position.

At the end of the day though I am happy to draw my own conclusions from the plethora of free press that is available that what Russia is currently doing is unjustifiable.
 

Spectric

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No one has mentioned the fact that Borris the clown has blatantly breached international law when he said I plan to increase the UK's stockpile of Trident nukes by 40% and then we have the UK, US and Australia making a pact in the Asia-Pacific to counter China, which will let Australia build nuclear-powered submarines for the first time using technology provided by the US.

These are hardly the sort of actions that peaceful nations would entertain and who knows how Russia and China looked upon them, they are not what is required if we want peace, only diplomacy and acceptance can work.

The one thing we should learn from the Cuban missile crisis is that it takes only a single action to ignite the whole situation, there was a documentary that gave details of just how close a russian submarine commander came to firing a nuclear torpedo into the American fleet near Cuba, it was only when another officer onboard asked the question if he was sure they were under direct threat and that was enough to stop the firing. Something like this is more than possible now and is why they have that direct phone line to try and prevent escalation but it is a narrow line with people like miss trust only flaming the situation.
 

Spectric

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I watch the BBC from time to time, and the outright lies and insistence on portraying Kiev propaganda as truth is astonishing.
That is the BBC all over with many subjects and biased reporting but it is only when you watch other news channels where they are not constrained by the legacy of the BBC that it becomes so obvious or evident. Try watching the news on freesat 216 & 217 and some of the presenters just tell the news as it is without bias and using straight talking language.
 

Yorkieguy

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Putin didn't 'invade Ukraine without rhyme or reason'. He did it because he thought Ukraine would surrender and he could move in without a shot, take over the Donbas region and install a puppet regime. Furthermore, he perceived NATO as weak and dysfunctional (as it was) so would stand by and allow it to happen, just as they did when Russia made a land-grab for Crimea in 2014, The West carried on with Russia business as usual - buying its coal, gas, timber etc.. Just as the West stood back from Syria, where Obama sad 'if they used Chemical weapons it was a red line and if they crossed it, America would act. They did use chemical weapons and America didn't act.

If Ukraine had surrendered, it's debatable whether or not NATO or the West would have done much about it. Like any tyrant, Putin was probably misinformed by those who advise him, because they'll only tell him what he wants to hear, just as was the case with Hitler, Saddam, Gadhafi, whoever.

Putin miscalculated and started something he doesn't know how to finish, but the reaction of Ukraine, Nato and the West will most likely cause him to think twice about trying it on elsewhere. Having failed to take over Ukraine, his aim is clearly, to destroy the infrastructure, damage the economy and target civilians - one war crime after another. After all, if he can't succeed in a land grab, it matters not that he destroys the infrastructure.

His failed adventure is of no benefit to Russian people, to it's standing in the world, and is damaging to it's economy and ours, with no end in sight. What this has demonstrated one more is that appeasement ('peace in our time') doesn't work - only deterrence. If a lamb lies down with a lion, the lamb won't get much sleep.

It will take a generation before this is resolved.

As to 'nukes' the reason the Russians didn't press the nuke button in the Bay of Pigs is that they knew they would be toast. Same goes for Putin and his ilk. (Mutually Assured Destruction').
 

morqthana

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The Tories are pro -business
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Spectric

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As to 'nukes' the reason the Russians didn't press the nuke button in the Bay of Pigs is that they knew they would be toast. Same goes for Putin and his ilk. (Mutually Assured Destruction').
That is providing you take the western view, take a russian view and you get a different outcome with there philosophy of escalate to de-escalate.
 

thetyreman

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You would rather have the crooks and lying toads that comprised previous governments, then? How about that shining star of socialism that was Blair's Labour government? You know the one, it bankrupted the UK and took part in an illegal war that killed a million people and unleashed the islamic invasion from which Europe and, particularly, the UK suffer today (and will get progressively worse unless European Governments get to grips with this uncontrolled immigration). Or, perhaps, the Tory Government of John 'Curry [email protected]' Major? The one that took us into the EU without a Referendum and paved the way for Brexit. Or you might just have had a Labour Government led by a career protestor whose biggest achievement was to go for a beer with his IRA mates and to stand on a platform in support of Hamas terrorists. That he was wiped out by Boris (with all his faults already well known) tells you all you need to know about what the British public thought of that.

Whatever your personal political beliefs, you will never get a perfect government in a democracy. Because you cannot please all the people all the time and, in the end, politicians are all just power lusting, greedy bast*rd human beings, with human flaws. Terry Pratchett got it right in his 'Lost Continent' DiscWorld book, where the people of 'XXXX' immediately jailed their newly-elected PMs because it simply saved time.
stop reading the daily mail
 

Fergie 307

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Sadly going to happen to a lot more people all over the world in the coming years. All the more tragic when you see it happening in some remote community who have done very little themselves to contribute to the problem.
 
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