Backsaw???

[lurker]

I have always (45 years) used the term tenon saw and I can see why it is also a dovetail saw.
But where did the ugly name backsaw come from?
I guess from over the pond.
I sense my old dad and many like him spinning in their graves

 

[Mr_P]

Yes you're right its American my 1908 Tyzack catalogue refers to British tenon saws and Disston brass back saws.

I like to think my dead ancestors aren't that fussed and have bigger fish to fry.

ttfn,
Carl backsaw.net member

 

[Peter Sefton]

I must say I have always classed Tenon and Dovetail saws as Back Saws (as they have brass backs) as opposed to hand saws. Not sure if it came from the USA, I don't think the influence was so big when I was learning my trade but the memory fades :?

Cheers Peter

 

[Mr_P]

oops please ignore my previous post. The information I gave was correct but at the top of the page it says

BEST QUALITY BACK SAWS.

 

[lurker]

Mr P. I bet you can' t find a reference to the ugly word in sorby old literature.
Clearly it matters not one jot what the things are called but British tradition is part of our (collecting) hobby is it not?

 

[Mr_P]

Sadly I'm a man of limited means and I only have one I.Sorby catalogue and it contains no planes or saws

I do try honest but my wallet isn't big enough.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321651644761? ... 1435.l2649

Edit, just realised it does show a section of "Back Saws" in the above 1938 catalogue

 

[undergroundhunter]

I always thought that back saw has the general name for them where as tenon/dovetail/sash were all job specific names i.e what they were used most for.

Matt

 

[lurker]

I concede my error Mr P.
it's still an ugly description





P.S. I reckon they wrote that for their Merican market :lol: :---) :---)

 

[jakethebuilder]

I always considered "backsaw" to be a generic term for any saw with the reinforced "Back", with a Dovetail saw being one type.

 

[lurker]

Yeah! But you are a colonial :lol:

 

[ajmacleod]

I always considered "backsaw" to be a generic term for any saw with the reinforced "Back", with a Dovetail saw being one type.

That's certainly how I used it on here earlier today... I think "or similarly fine toothed tenon saw, dovetail saw, sash saw, gents saw or mitre saw" would have been a bit more clumsy

I'm all for repelling Americanisms but this particular term seems so apt in the generic application that I'd be in favour of it even if it did turn out to be a sneaky cross-Atlantic import!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Charles Holtzappfel ('Turning and Mechanical Manipulation' Volume 2, London, 1847, page 713) refers to both 'parallel saws with backs' and to 'back-saws', of which he identifies 6 types; tenon saws, sash saws, carcase saws, dovetail saws, Smith's screw-head saws, and comb-cutter's saws. Thus, the term 'backsaw' (with or without hyphen) has been around for a long time.

However, the term 'tenon saw' has changed it's meaning a bit. Holtzappfel lists a tenon saw as being 16 - 20 inches long, so they've shrunk a bit in the last century or so. Speculating a bit - it could be that as more large joinery tenons tended to be cut by machine, the craftsman's need for a large backsaw diminished considerably, but he clung to the term for his largest backsaw. Certainly on the secondhand market, 12" saws are common as muck, 14" reasonably common, 16" not common but crop up occasionally, and anything larger is like hen's teeth.

 

[bugbear]

Certainly on the secondhand market, 12" saws are common as muck, 14" reasonably common, 16" not common but crop up occasionally, and anything larger is like hen's teeth.

And any really long backsaw you find has probably been separated from its mitre box.

BugBear

 

[beech1948]

In 1960 in my first year at Grammar school my note book shows that saws with a brass back were called Backsaws as a class of saws. The sub-divisions into Tenon, Dovetail etc , the various tooth patterns and sharpening theory seem to have made up a whole double lesson.

I have never worried about such pedantry and usually use the saws proper name and almost never use backsaw as its so general as to be fairly useless unless talking about brass backs.

Seems to be a bit of a chat about not very much.

 

[AndyT]

I'll try and offer a few facts about the early use of the term "back saw."

The first use recorded in the OED is in Edward H. Knight "The practical dictionary of mechanics" 1st edition, 1874–1884 (4 vols.) London: Cassell, dated to 1877

Back-saw, a saw whose web is stiffened by a metallic back of greater substance; as, a tenon saw.

I have found one earlier use recorded - the William Marples catalogue of 1864, reproduced (rather small and fuzzy, but readable) in Goodman's "History of Woodworking Tools" on page 141, illustrates a

C.S. [ie Cast Steel] Back-Saw, pattern no 1213.

I can't find anything else earlier than the Holtzapffel cited by CheshireChappie - which ought to be in the OED.

Smith's Key (the early standardised common catalogue of Sheffield Toolmakers) does not use the term in the 1815 edition. It does in the 1871 edition, in both the illustrations and in the price list.

The 1938 Marples catalogue uses the term Back Saw. So does the virtually identical catalogue of Turner, Naylor and Company (ie the catalogue of tools branded with the I. Sorby "Punch" mark).

After all those facts, one opinion: the term 'back saw' is quite a useful one if you want to distinguish saws by their construction rather than their use.

EDIT: Ok, one older example, from famous social reformer Robert Owen, writing in The New Moral World, in 1839, published in Leeds, listing the presents given to the Hampshire Community:

Thank you Google.

 

[lanemaux]

Andy mi amigo , if it should ever happen that I go missing , may I specify to the wife that she put you onto looking for me? :wink: :lol: :lol: The cops around here need a map to wipe after potty , so not counting on them.

 

[bugbear]

I have never worried about such pedantry and usually use the saws proper name and almost never use backsaw ...

Some contradiction there, shirley?

:lol:

BugBear

 

[beech1948]

Now now no need to call me Shirley :roll:

Thats not a mobile phone smilie is it ? Did thaat just cost me a £