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Baby Wadkin Bursgreen in California: Advice on an AGS10

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Farmer Giles

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Hi Fitz

The saw came with toothed belts so difficult to say, but from previous experience there is little or no difference in that respect, but less prone to slip, I haven't used belt dressing on a toothed belt - yet!

That gives me an idea, the belt on my Rapidor mechanical hacksaw is a pig to tension, I may swap it for a toothed variety.....

Cheers
Andy
 

KT_NorCal

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I’d really like to see a picture of the saw and the bush arrangement. It’s a new one to me. Sorry, don’t want to hijack the thread.
Hi Deema,
Here are some pictures I took tonight for you. I was actually able to tap the bushing out without too much effort, so I may try and replace it. The other one in the main trunnion casting is in there solid. Also, measurements are attached. Done with a cheap digital caliper not inside micrometer so take the measurements with a grain of salt as far as decimal point accuracy...

It definitely looks original though as there are no indications of a secondary boring operation on either.

Iside diameter of the casting bore hole: 25.05mm
Outside diameter of bronze bushing: 25.03
Inside diameter of bronze bushing: 20.06
Diameter of pin shaft: 20mm dead

Also, interestingly all the castings have what looks like yellow crayon identifying markings on them. I'm guessing it was from the factory for assembly purposes. The rack for the worm gear looks to be in great condition too which makes me happy.

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deema

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Thanks for sharing the pictures, very interesting and intriguing!

Having a bronze bush in the main trunion casting makes no sense as the pin is locked by the two set screws. The pin doesn’t rotate, only the casting on which the spindle is mounted.

I still think it’s been bushed after being rebored. Nothing wrong with that, it’s a good solution.
I don’t recognise the size of bush you would require to find an off the shelf replacement. However, with the grib holding it on the other side, I don’t think that the bush not being a press will will have any affect on the performance of the saw, after all it’s jus5 20 microns. If your concerned a bit of bearing lock will secure it.
 

KT_NorCal

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I can't imagine when it could have been re-bored, honestly. The saw is really low mileage and the guy I bought it from knew it from when it was purchased. Also, nothing else has been apart on this thing, so I kinda have to think it was a factory job from the beginning. Unless, of course, the factory blew it on the first machining operation and wanted to save the parts from the bin.

I'll get better pics of the other half once it is out of the cast iron tub though. Maybe that bushing is steel given what you point out as far as it not rotating in that half.

I'll probably just replace the bronze bushing as just doing a quick look around online there are some easy options that seem to be a tighter tolerance. For a couple bucks I might as well if I'm going through the hassle of rebuilding the whole thing (at least what is the reasoning I used to sell myself on doing it).
(for example: Multipurpose 660 Leaded Sleeve Bearing, for 20 mm Shaft Diameter, for 25 mm Housing ID, 25 mm Long | McMaster-Carr )

KT
 

KT_NorCal

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Got the top off and almost all the guts out of the machine. It's an interesting design for the trunnions compared to the Delta Unisaw. Definitely think the newer raise/lower trunnion rear retaining contraption isn't a very good design. The older version with a proper ghib plate makes much more sense. It's probably why when lowering the blade it wouldn't drop smoothly and juddered its way down.

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Question: Is there an elegant way of getting this tilt worm mechanism out of the saw? It looks like that worm roll pin must be punched out and then the front handwheel roll pin punched out as well and it should push out the other side of the saw, but wanted ask first in case there was a specifc process for going about it...

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Another question: the saw arbor is pressed out the front of the housing, yes (once you remove the locating screw in the side of course)? Also is the inner blade flange pressed off too or do most people just leave it alone? I was thinking of lapping it is the only reason I ask.

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KT_NorCal

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Having a bronze bush in the main trunion casting makes no sense as the pin is locked by the two set screws. The pin doesn’t rotate, only the casting on which the spindle is mounted.
Turns out the bushing in main trunion is probably steel of some kind, as you predicted. Glass bead blasted the machined ways on the tunion and took at closer look at it. Definitely sounds like it as well. Either way, definitely not bronze colored!
 

KT_NorCal

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Also, does anyone have any idea how sensitive the Brooks three phase motors that came in these 70s era Wadkin Bursgreen models are? It lists the motor as dual voltage with the lower voltage being 230. The voltages here where I am in California run 120 and 240 and tend to be very stable. Running a rotary phase converter is going to increase that a bit (at least on two of the legs). I have a 3hp Brooks in the AGS and a 4hp Brooks in the BER2.
Thanks!

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deema

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Getting the worm gear out can be frustrating! You need to remove the handle as you’ve identified and also the collar that’s held in place by a grub screw on the inside at the opposite side. Remove the pin from the worm gear. Clean all the rust off the shaft. Now try moving the worm gear…..it may well be stuck as the pin often bruises the hole in the shaft. Equally try to move the internal collar, the grub screw is likely to have knarled the shaft which needs sorting. We usually remove the external collar on the opposite external side to the handle and tap it from this side through, avoiding any possibility of damaging the threaded handle side. I would say about 1 in 10 we end up cutting the shaft and making a new one due to not being able to get the worm to slide.
 
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deema

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If you have a look on our thread about restoring a Wadkin BGS10 we go through how to disassemble/ assemble the spindle.

The only difference with yours is that the spindle is contained in a separate casting. What ever you do, DO NOT apply any pressure to the rotating cast iron collar on the spindle casting. This forms part of the rise and fall system and any pressure will distort it and cause it to bind or worse still crack. If you distort it you need to get it rebored.

The internal flange on the spindle is not pressed on, it’s machined from solid item. We always using a lathe to touch up the flange and make it true to the shaft again.
 
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deema

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The motor probably needs to have its bearings changed, the front bearing is highly likely to be on its last legs. Typically we would in these circumstances run the motor from a VFD which produces a fully balanced output, however, it really needs the motor to have class F insulation for it to be used with an inverter.
 

MilesH

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Hi Kevin,

Just noticed you've been updating here. My AGS10 (1977). has the bronze bush in the rise & fall casting but the bore through the main casting is 20mm, no steel bush. Have you had juddering/jumping problems because the rise and fall casting assembly doesn't fall under its own weight? I've had this from new with mine. I always attributed it to their hack design replacement of the gib strip system. Recently, I replaced the bronze bush and doing that showed up significant angular discrepancy between the slide surfaces of the two castings. At first, I thought that it was from post machining distortion of the castings but, having checked that, I now think it is a discrepancy between the pivot borings of the two castings. That's where I am, at the moment. The problem with the rise & fall assembly not falling under its own weight is definitely misalignment between the two castings. The rise and fall works fine on my 1960 BGS but the saw spindle isn't perpendicular to the sliding table movement axis. This is more likely to be distortion of the rise & fall casting in the other plane, I think. There is a gap between the castings at the pivot with the slide surfaces mated. Not that impressed with the workmanship/QC at Durham. I had to replace my AGS spindle bearings after 6 months because they had been so badly fitted.......
 
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deema

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That’s really interesting Miles, I wonder if the bush was something particular to the USA markets?? With your machine that makes it two US based machines. I have worked on a lot of UK based AGS saws and so far none have been bushed.
 

MilesH

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Hi Deema, I may have confused you by posting on the Canadian & American websites. I live and work in London : ) My guess was that the bushing was something that came in about '76/'77 There were other changes to the design at that time. Both Kevin's and my machine have the single brass adjustment screw as replacement for the gib strip on the rise & fall slideway. There again, if you haven't come across it before, it might have been something they did as an individual correction? Whatever, it's difficult to understand the reasoning! I've attached a spreadsheet I started, to track some of the changes to the AGS & BGS. If anyone has anything to add to it, I'll keep updating. Great to see your progress on the BGS10
 

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MilesH

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Good point Vann! I didn't consider that. Now it's understandable. I'll add UK to my profiles.
 
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KT_NorCal

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Getting the worm gear out can be frustrating! You need to remove the handle as you’ve identified and also the collar that’s held in place by a grub screw on the inside at the opposite side. Remove the pin from the worm gear. Clean all the rust off the shaft. Now try moving the worm gear…..it may well be stuck as the pin often bruises the hole in the shaft. Equally try to move the internal collar, the grub screw is likely to have knarled the shaft which needs sorting. We usually remove the external collar on the opposite external side to the handle and tap it from this side through, avoiding any possibility of damaging the threaded handle side. I would say about 1 in 10 we end up cutting the shaft and making a new one due to not being able to get the worm to slide.
Hi Deema, I took a closer look at it tonight and it does look like it will be easier to get out through the back of the saw. I took the handle and roll pin out already to fabricate a new handwheel, so that is already done. When I took the roll pin out of the worm on the raise/lower shaft I was having to get a little overly aggressive with the hammer and pin punch, so I ended up pressing it out. I might want to support the worm on this shaft somehow to prevent myself from doing something really stupid like bending the damn shaft or something... Given everything has come apart (relatively) easily so far, I'm going to be positive and say I probably won't have to cut this one out... :) I'll let you know how that goes!
 

KT_NorCal

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If you have a look on our thread about restoring a Wadkin BGS10 we go through how to disassemble/ assemble the spindle.

The only difference with yours is that the spindle is contained in a separate casting. What ever you do, DO NOT apply any pressure to the rotating cast iron collar on the spindle casting. This forms part of the rise and fall system and any pressure will distort it and cause it to bind or worse still crack. If you distort it you need to get it rebored.

The internal flange on the spindle is not pressed on, it’s machined from solid item. We always using a lathe to touch up the flange and make it true to the shaft again.
I love that BGS. I need to find myself one of those someday. I'll have to live vicariously though you and Miles for the moment though... will be a few more years before I can think of that.

I'm 100% not sure what you might mean about not putting pressure on the CI spindle bearing housing.... The only two choices -- I think-- for getting it off will be to press it off or find a bearing splitter that might fit between the rear blade flange and the housing and using that. Finding one that will fit and clear the mounting flange might be a problem though. Might be able to use the bearing splitter to press against the arbor press though.

I would think that the bearings should be tight on the shaft and only a strong slip fit into the housing itself if the WB design holds to general standards.

I'll have to wait for my metal shop class to start up again once I get it out and touch up the rear flange on the lathe. When you touch it up how many thou less do you keep the inner part that clamps on the blade? I noticed on my Dado nut that there isn't even an inner clamping surface which was interesting.
 

KT_NorCal

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The motor probably needs to have its bearings changed, the front bearing is highly likely to be on its last legs. Typically we would in these circumstances run the motor from a VFD which produces a fully balanced output, however, it really needs the motor to have class F insulation for it to be used with an inverter.
Yes, I'm definitely going to swap the bearings. It was only in operation for a few years, but it spent that whole time running a very heavy custom carbide grooving blade (blade on top in Pic) and then it sat since about 1984/5 ish none of which is very good for bearings. I'm going to do it when I do the arbor.

I may eventually run this and the BER2 from VFDs, but for now I have a very high spec static phase converter that came with the BER2 that I'm turning into a balanced rotary phase converter, so it should work well.
 

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deema

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The spindle is designed to move in the housing to allow it to be aligned with the riving knife. With the side bolt removed and using something soft between the hammer and the end of the spindle you can tap it out.
The Wadkin instructions ask you to tap it either in or out to align the blade to the riving knife and then tighten up the bolt. I go through how to assemble it in my thread.
 

deema

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Have you thought about a digital phase converter? It’s like a VFD but replaces a static or rotary phase converter. KW/ KW output it will be I believe not much more than buying a motor to make your static into a rotary and far quieter. It can also brake machines if running just one
 

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