Baby Wadkin Bursgreen in California: Advice on an AGS10

[deema]

My error, your absolutely correct, I was giving the wrong generation. They spindle on yours was designed for 6203 bearings. When we find ‘Friday’ manufacturing problems, we just machine / correct the errors, it’s all part of the fun of restoring old iron to ‘better’ than they were originally made. It looks like the shaft doesn’t have a waist to allow the inner bearing to slip freely to its journal when it’s over the outer journal. If it hadn’t, I would add one, makes life far easier. I would also machine the journals to the correct fit tolerances.

 

[KT_NorCal]

My error, your absolutely correct, I was giving the wrong generation. They spindle on yours was designed for 6203 bearings. When we find ‘Friday’ manufacturing problems, we just machine / correct the errors, it’s all part of the fun of restoring old iron to ‘better’ than they were originally made. It looks like the shaft doesn’t have a waist to allow the inner bearing to slip freely to its journal when it’s over the outer journal. If it hadn’t, I would add one, makes life far easier. I would also machine the journals to the correct fit tolerances.

If anyone has one of these arbors out of their machine I would definitely be interested to see what measurements you have....

Deema, not 100% sure what you are referring to as far as the waist goes, but this is for sure out of spec for really any 6203 bearing (even C4 clearance bearings... assuming I did my sums right) where the bearings are supposed to seat. There is a clearance between the two bearing seat areas so if you look at the measurements from the back (where the belt sheave would be seated it runs (in imperial) 0.6295" then to the bearing seat at 0.670" then it is recessed some at 0.666" then back to 0.670" at the front bearing seat.

These are also tolerances that are not very easy to machine to. Especially given that the arbor isn't truly perfect in that there is some run out at various points.

I would be looking to machine something that needed to be taken from 17.18mm to 17.01... at the most (or least, as it were)... and not a smidge over. I have access to a Myford cylindrical grinder, but have never used it, so very likely it would be easier for me to machine a whole new arbor/spindle.... although even that would be an interesting challenge for me (given my middling at best skill level).

Oy.

 

[deema]

It will have been machined between centres, you may be able to pick these up again by a bit of careful cleaning around the edges of the centre drilled holes and then just touch up the journals. Yep the waist is the dip between the journals, it looked not to have one. If you’ve access to a cylindrical grinder you’ve got the perfect machine for resolving the problem.

 

[OCtoolguy]

Hi All,
I'm from over in the States and this is my first post here although I've been reading through some old threads plus using the search function for several weeks trying to gather as much background info as possible on an AGS10 I recently purchased as well as a WB BER2 I picked up several months ago.

The AGS I just picked up is a 79 that was purchased new out here in California. I'm the second owner which I think is cool. The previous owner was a private business that made lighting fixtures from California Redwood and this was just one of several Wadkin Bursgreen saws they had bought. One of the other ones is a crazy scary looking gang-rip saw (or "multi-rip" BSW I think it was called) with seven or eight very large blades on it... and a 40HP electric motor... this AGS was at the other end of the scale!

I have been on the lookout for a BGS 10 or maybe 12 for a while, but suspect they were never imported to the States and had basically given up hope of finding one when this popped up, so I grabbed it as a consolation prize. It seems to be a fantastic saw. Went and picked it up the same day the fires started here in Northern California with all the extreme winds, so towing it back home was an interesting experience. It is relatively complete with only a few bits missing.. one of which is the dust extraction hood which the PO thinks he might have been guilty of tossing as they closed the business given its rather strange non-dust hood shape. It has sat for many years essentially unused, so will need to be taken apart cleaned and put back together again. Did some light cleaning of the top as it was covered in a thin coat of "barn rust" from sitting around for so long, but that is it so far.

Only thing that definitely is wrong (as far as I can tell) is that the 10" blades don't fully retract as it is currently, but I think I see two set/limit screws on the trunnion that might be the guilty parties. Also there is an extreme amount of lash on the raise/lower gear/handle, so will need to figure that out too. The arbor nut also has gone on a walk-about, which is a bummer, since I'm rather sure the arbor is a 5/8" BSW left hand thread... which means I will definitely not be picking one up somewhere locally. The upside is that I apparently have the rather rare dado arbor nut, because that is what seems to be clamping in the blade that was on the saw.

Biggest bummer is that I had thought all WBs after an early 70s date came with riving knives... turns out at least the US market ones all came with a "US spec" blade guard that made riving knives unusable (fantastic safety logic, that), so this one has what is really a splitter... which bums me out significantly. I'm hoping some members here who have one of these can tell if it is something that can be retrofitted as it looks like the trunnion has all the appropriate holes to use a riving knife, it just doesn't have one.

First couple of surprising observations after spending only an hour or two with it... It was almost comically heavy for a 10" table saw... I have a Unisaw and I swear it feels close to double the weight. If I hadn't brought a drop-deck trailer the move probably wouldn't have happened that day. Secondly, the fence seems to be really, really nice. Doesn't seem that sophisticated, but is rock steady and extremely easy to use (even with rusty internals and guide bar (which turned out to be solid steel and almost dropped on my leg.. see previous comment on it being a silly heavy saw).

I attached a few pics below and then will post some of the questions I come up with as I go along. The main one will be regarding possibly retrofitting a riving knife, but also would be interested in seeting any pictures members here have of the "exaust hood" (part D-1026/355) as I will defintiely try and fab one up soon.

Thank you!

I know this doesn't have anything to do with your questions or your saw but I just thought I'd let you know that you have a "neighbor" down here in Southern California, Huntington Beach, to be exact. Nice to meet a fellow American here on the U.K. thread. I enjoy reading everything here especially the joke thread. I have to copy and paste many of them on my Facebook page. We watch almost nothing but Brit tv. Best ever. Good luck with your project saw. I wish I was a bit closer to you so I could come over and help/watch your progress.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Did some clean up on the blade flange. It was pretty much a mess as noted before, so it should be way more accurate at this point. Before, you could actually rock the removable flange across the inner flange where the two pin spanner holes are. Ended up taking the outer ring down -0.008 in (only the last 0.002 were consistent across the flange) and the inner ring -0.002 in. Now you can hardly tell where the two join which makes me happy (I cleaned up the outside diameter of everything as well... also the dado arbor nut). Bummer was the tool picked up a burr or some swarf that I didn't notice until I took everything out and cleaned the oil and gunk off, so will have to do a final, final finish pass next week. This saw was relatively unabused, so this process does seem like a worthy process to go through on these older saws to get the best accuracy out of them.

Still doing some research about how to set up the arbor bearings so they run a bit of pre-load as the slightly oddball arbor set up on this saw potentially will allow for that to be done...

 

[KT_NorCal]

Good luck with your project saw. I wish I was a bit closer to you so I could come over and help/watch your progress.

Thanks for the good thoughts! I would have to say that watching this process might not be that fun as it mostly seems to consist of me standing around staring at parts trying to figure out something and then using inventive curse words.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Figured I should update this.... Finished the "updates" to the WB AGS arbor/flanges/etc. Things take a surprising amount of time when you can't really chance messing something up. Also, I'm in the middle of stripping all the cabinets of the nasty green paint and that seems to take forever as well. My theory is this is the one time this is ever going to happen for this saw so I might as well do it right. Using a mix of the lame chemical paint stripper we have available these days and a media blast cabinet. I've also fabricated a "floor" for the saw as it was open before. I'm eventually going to fab a blade flask for dust management, but that is a semi-complex thing given the way the internal bits are arranged, so I fabricated an external dust port and I'm going to try and close the cabinet up as much as possible for now.

I've also started painting the internal/trunnion bits and some various small pieces which I was able to get fully stripped so far. Interior is going to be white (really liked the idea of being able to actually see what is going on inside). Outside is going to be a mix of the earlier Wadkin gloss dark grey with all the various attached bits satin black.

For the arbor ended up doing the following in the effort to make the saw as accurate as possible.
1. Cleaned up the inner blade flange which was a mess.
2. Cleaned up the Dado nut, which was a mess as well from being monkeyed with a pin spanner that didn't fit
3. Fabbed custom pin "spanners" for the inner flange and dado nut. they are custom sizes since the holes on both were so destroyed
4. fabbed an inner spacer for the bearings that is .002 smaller than the outside spacer in an effort to provide some "preload" to the bearings.
5. Fabricated a pair of custom 12" blade flange/adaptors. This saw can run 12 inch blades and wanted a way to swap them in with zero fuss/effort.
6. Made a custom fit bearing putter-onner. The bearings are a strong interference fit on this arbor and wanted to get them on without screwing them up.
7. Outside original flange was a mess as well, so lapped that on a surface plate.

On to other bits now. In theory all I really have to do is finish stripping the cabinet and painting then reassembly, but I'm going to fabricate a riving knife assembly and do some work on upgrading the fence a bit, so while it will be back together it won't necessarily be done.

(Also, I put a "wanted" ad up in the classified section of the site. Looking for a couple bits. Main one currently is an older AGS style trunnion capture ghib plate and the casting that retains it. If you happen to have these bits spare I would be interested in chatting!)

 

[clogs]

Huntington beach.....the memories.....
My home was just outside Seal beach....
bought some hand made leather sandles there...after 40 odd years just had to let em go....
(u could watch the guy make em for u).....guess he's not there anymore.....
happy days for me.....

 

[KT_NorCal]

Just an interesting aside. Recently saw some pictures from a big 16" Invicta (An actually quite well made Brazilian machine... not sure if they were imported into the UK or not. Many were rebadged as Delta here in the US like this one) saw. The trunnion set up in the saw is almost a dead-ringer for the Wadkin Bursgreen AGS trunnion design.

While admittedly a massive saw, note the extensive gib plate that captures the end of the trunnion... that is the way it should be done!