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Ttrees

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DomD":16s2e8yo said:
It seems to move back and forth just like the thicker blade. To clarify I have now tried this with a standard guage 3/8" and a standard guage 3/4". I have a thin guage 3/4" (tuffsaws premium range) that I am yet to test. Are you saying it is easier to track a thicker guage blade?
Guessed you have watched many folks on the net adjust the tracking on the top wheel,
You stand a very good chance of stripping the threads on the tracking bolt if your blade is tensioned whilst doing this, especially when swapping back and fourth from a wider blade to a narrower one trying to get it spot on.

You should be able to track a narrow blade of any set or gauge in the centre on both wheels,
easily that is.
I cannot say if a thicker gauge or heavier set narrow blade will act much differently, but for
a wider blade, either a thicker set or heavier gauge suits my machine.

As said always suspect the blade no matter the supplier, and you are now faced with the decision of how much your time is worth to you.
It is always nice to have a different blade so that you can be sure to be sure.

Might as well try even just hand tracking that other unfitted 3/4" blade to get a clearer answer.
You don't have to run it/ tension it very much , if you're worried it might be affected by the possible misalignment ...
(possible as these thin blades are more delicate)

So you are (I am) guessing that three blades will all have the same issues.
If not, then disregard below and try another blade.

I'm guessing this is the case that they all share the same issue, since the narrow one is having problems.
Therefore I would
Get the narrow blade running in the centre first by way of either adjustment of the north/south or the full Rikon article ( I tried the Rikon thing without success to get my wide thin gauge blades to work)
Pictures of the jacking bolt locations and whilst you're at it,
take one of the tracking knob with a reference i.e sticking out 3 1/4" from the machine.

I reckon a wider blade might be of use here aswell to line things up with a bit more force,
(I can't remember the exact sequence of adjustments I have done)
as the east/west jacking bolts might be off a bit, or need to be loosened a hair just to get movement
for the north/south adjustment.
The saw still might not like the thin gauge wide blade, but you will be able to run the narrow blade quite well now, which is probably the cleanest cutting blade you can get, in regards to breakout on the bottom of the work.

The wide blade will either work or it wont, and depending on how much your time is worth to you, then you may wonder why you didn't try a wider kerf or gauge blade in the first place.

Edit: Only read that you also have a stout 3/4" blade, so you're good to test and have the benefit of the doubt to trust them.
This blade along with the narrow one you have will make it a half hour job, knock 10 mins off that when you've got the hang of it, compared to if you only had one or two thin gauge blades where you could spend days and still have a unreliable running machine.
I would shoot for the wider blade tracking towards the front of the wheels, and for the narrower blade to have the gullets on centre with the crown.

The only other things that might be a factor is if one of the tires was different, or backwards if the camber isn't identical on them, or if its the tires themselves that have the crowned profile.
I suppose the location that they're glued onto the wheel might be worth checking, or seeing if other folks have the same saw and if this matters, or can be adjusted out via top wheel shaft adjustment.

If a mismatch of profile on the tires is much of a problem you can get back and fourth tracking issues, blade wobbling /rotating so much that it will refuse to cut, blade flutter and the tendency for the blade to walk (that's another use of the thrust guide, not just for performance sakes)
and much groaning from the machine which could possibly warp a blade at high tension, I suppose?

With your narrow blade, hand turning it while it's half tensioned is enough to know if its going to track OK or if adjustments are needed.

Another adjustment is if there's any adjustment on the upper wheel sliding out or back into the cabinet, which is probably the last fiddle if needed at all if it were not in line with the guidepost
(which I presume is non adjustable)

And Edit no.2 #-o
I notice on the Axi catalogue that your saw has two blade speeds...
540 & 840m/min
Presuming this is supposed to be set to the faster setting, I don't know.
Maybe this could be causing trouble.

Maybe this could be worth investigating also.
Good luck

Tom
 

DomD

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Ttrees":2t4dun4t said:
Guessed you have watched many folks on the net adjust the tracking on the top wheel,
You stand a very good chance of stripping the threads on the tracking bolt if your blade is tensioned whilst doing this, especially when swapping back and fourth from a wider blade to a narrower one trying to get it spot on.
I'll avoid this in future.
Ttrees":2t4dun4t said:
Get the narrow blade running in the centre first by way of either adjustment of the north/south or the full Rikon article ( I tried the Rikon thing without success to get my wide thin gauge blades to work)
Pictures of the jacking bolt locations and whilst you're at it,
take one of the tracking knob with a reference i.e sticking out 3 1/4" from the machine.
I now have this working well; tracking to the centre of both wheels and minimal back-forth (with east-west adjustment): https://i.imgur.com/99an2Q2.mp4
I followed the Rikon guide and imagine I could get it better if I wanted to but to be this amount of movement is acceptable. I am yet to try with the wider blades but will be sure to document position of lower wheel adjustment bolts first.
Ttrees":2t4dun4t said:
The only other things that might be a factor is if one of the tires was different, or backwards if the camber isn't identical on them, or if its the tires themselves that have the crowned profile.
I suppose the location that they're glued onto the wheel might be worth checking, or seeing if other folks have the same saw and if this matters, or can be adjusted out via top wheel shaft adjustment.
I don't think it's tire orientation as I have tried both ways - I am sticking to the way that it came with.
Ttrees":2t4dun4t said:
I notice on the Axi catalogue that your saw has two blade speeds...
540 & 840m/min
Presuming this is supposed to be set to the faster setting, I don't know.
Maybe this could be causing trouble.
I've tried both and it seems like a minimal difference. I am sticking to the faster setting which I have read is more suitable for timber.

I think the next test will be checking how straight it can cut, now that I have relatively good tracking and less back-forth movement of the blade. At the moment it will mostly be plywood so drift may be less of a problem.

Thanks once again, your troubleshooting tips have helped me hugely!
Dom
 

Ttrees

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Hello again
Have you adjusted it so your narrow blade is tracking in centre of both wheels?
There's still quite a bit of movement on that narrow blade you're running.

Might seem OK now, but when you install that stout 3/4" blade it will probably dance about big time.
Hand turning is enough to tell how it will run, I would tension this wider blade close to, or at tension,
as it will track more forwards the more it is tensioned.
I can hear that something's not quite right yet, maybe more evident this groaning, turning by hand, or when machine is coasting to a stop.
The narrow blade should be very easy to track regardless if you set it up for the wider blade.
I think you stand a much better chance of getting the narrow blade running a good bit better by trying to fettle the machine to track the wider stout one.

As you said you're cutting plywood for now, two things you might notice from using the saw as is.
Are you experiencing any spelching of the timber on the underside of the cut?
I imagine the east/west adjustment of the lower wheel will make this more evident.
I would shoot for none at all with a tuffsaws blade.

Another thing you might notice is the sawdust patterns on the wheels might hint at a problem.
I haven't cut plywood much on a bandsaw, but what's worth noting is being aware of resin build up on both the blade and the tires, as when cutting green timber.
Both must be cleaned off to be sure of anything!
But it may be worth looking at the sawdust tracks for a hint of a problem, before scraping it off first,
You may notice the exact same pattern again, ideally the tracks should be in the same location
on both tires, this is where the narrow blade may make things more clear.

To clean the saw
I use a blunted, blunt chisel turning wheels by hand (look up on YT, Bill Carter's bunt chisel technique, and take the sharp edge off this blunted sharp edge as you don't want to put a nick into your tires whilst giving them a scrape with a poundshop special.
Edit:
If your wanting to be sure and keeping everything spick and span, then it may be worth
getting a Bic ballpoint and marking many short lines on the tires to see if they will hint at something
like an uneven or un-centred camber.

If all else fails, I would get a stout Axi blade to be sure, and kicking myself I hadn't done this like a year sooner!

All the best
Tom
 

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Ttrees":ye48m4zt said:
Might seem OK now, but when you install that stout 3/4" blade it will probably dance about big time.
Wow yes, you were absolutely right. The thick 25mm blade oscillates severly and can't really be used. I haven't had time to do extensive lower wheel adjustments with the thicker blade but from ~1/2hr experimenting it seems to make little difference...

I have some plywood and do seem to remember some tearout on the bottom. I will see how the east-west ajustment effects it.
Ttrees":ye48m4zt said:
Another thing you might notice is the sawdust patterns on the wheels might hint at a problem.
I checked today and there doesn't seem to be much of a pattern and the wheels overall seem fairly clean so I don't think its resin build up. I will give them a clean regardless.
Ttrees":ye48m4zt said:
If your wanting to be sure and keeping everything spick and span, then it may be worth
getting a Bic ballpoint and marking many short lines on the tires to see if they will hint at something
like an uneven or un-centred camber.
This seems like a good idea: I will give it a go in a few weeks when I have more time! By then I should also have the replacement wheel bearings in which will ensure that's not the issue.

Thanks,
Dom
 

Ttrees

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Hi Dom
I think you should keep the wide blade on to set the machine up,
as it will probably have more effect on spelching /tearout with any blade, than what little difference I found with trying those Rikon adjustments out...
I have somewhat flatter tires on my machine, so that might be a different case with a good camber.
Hopefully someone will comment on this.
It might make more sense to do that later if something is obvious like the blade more on one side of the wheel than the other (difficult to measure)

A 25mm blade should have the teeth at the front of the wheel, something like your lower wheel and drive belt photo, at the least I would think.
I reckon it wants to track it a dangerous amount off the wheels/too much to be safe.
Maybe other folks will chime in here about cambers and really wide blades...
and not gullets on centre, and since its too much of a blade for a sub 200kg machine IMO, will need to be tensioned quite well, or in other words...
Might not be reliable to use at low tension hanging off the camber so much, as the wheel would be set with the blade tracking too far forward (unless you wish to potentially damage it by overdoing tension and tracking it where the saw wants to do)
if it were 3/4" you would be tracking the top wheel towards the middle, so when its tensioned fully every wee bit of tension will alter the tracking of the blade off the camber more.
I would shoot for that lower wheel photo you took, it looks spot on for a 3/4" blade to be tracking to.


If your wheels spin freely with none or very little noise, then that won't make a difference, BTDT have 4 nice bearings made in 1997 and were still good, bar one that I damaged taking out.

I recommend a 3/4" Axi blade if your in a rush.
I found with the Axi blades a big difference in table adjustment was required to set it up
as the blade picked a different spot to track compared to the thin gauge.
The saw is tuned in nicely now, keeping the surfaced side to the fence, set up so if I push too hard it will veer away from the fence/line.
Big difference than with thin kerf blades set up the same, but would drift either way sometimes.

Good luck
Tom
 

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Hi again,
First of all, sorry for the huge amount of time since last posting- I went through a very busy period at work then got sidetracked finishing cladding my shed.
I have been using the bandsaw (it works great for 'construction scale tasks') but the accuracy/vibration has not improved. I think the saw being on wheels means the vibration is quite a bit worse but I'd rather not bolt it into the concrete (as is recommended in the manual).

I have not yet been able to try out all of your suggestions but did go and spend a few more hours with the lower wheel adjustment but it doesn't seem to be working.

I've also attached a few videos which may help explain the issue. First here showing the vibration in the drive belt and the noise the motor makes as it slows:

Next the top wheel with the door open (very carefully filmed):

Finally the blade alone with all the guides backed off:

My only thoughts are that it could be to do with the motor or the top adjustment bolts:
IMG_20210111_183753.jpg


If these machines are fairly simple to an engineer that knows what they are doing, might it be worth paying for a one off service? That way I could see if its worth spending extra money buying blades and bearings or if there is something more problematic with the machine itself. This would depend on the cost of a one off service of course!
I knew there was the risk when I bought it second hand that it might not work as I had hoped and probably should have got a new one for my first but I've learned for next time.
Dom
 

Ttrees

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Took me some time to figure out how to watch
(folks might need to right click them and hit "watch video")
it was really glitchey otherwise

My saw doesn't vibrate at all when there is no blade installed.
Is there a third tensioner pulley missing for belt somewhere...
might it have fallen off or was taken off for some alignment issues?

Did you try removing the belt to inspect it, might have wear on a specific side cracks or a bit of a lump missing?
You can buy these from lawnmower service places for less than a tenner.
If you don't have the pulley, it might be worth getting a shorter belt.

I'd be looking at the motor, if it's a flange mounted, face mounted or
foot mounted, if the latter I'd be looking to see if it got a knock
and moved, any sign of original location on the paint?

All I've ever seen has been flange mounted motors on bandsaws...
which are non adjustable, but the pulley should be...
Have you tried loosening it seeing if the belt (if sound)
will line it up to the groove in the wheel unplugged.

The question is why is the pulley missing?

Hopefully others might comment on the motor brake squeal.
Seems like you're getting to know your way around a bandsaw!

Tom
 
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DomD

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My saw doesn't vibrate at all when there is no blade installed.
Is there a third tensioner pulley missing for belt somewhere...
might it have fallen off or was taken off for some alignment issues?
It did come with a tensioner but the manual describes this as for 'speed control'. I removed it because the bearings in it are clearly worn and it screeches like a jet engine starting up when in place.
That said I think you are right - removing this could have been the issue. The vibration back/forth of the blade seemed to be timed fairly similarly to the vibration in the pulley. I've reinstalled it but will need to get new bearings before seeing if it solved my problem.

IMG_20200713_224555.jpg
IMG_20210120_190529.jpg


I'd be looking at the motor, if it's a flange mounted, face mounted or
foot mounted, if the latter I'd be looking to see if it got a knock
and moved, any sign of original location on the paint?
The motor is face mounted so hopefully dislocation of it won't be the issue.

I'll keep you updated if the tensioner with new bearings helps.

Thanks for your advice,
Dom
 

Ttrees

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This is all really interesting to me, as I wouldn't have thought the belt had much influence on things, regarding blade tracking.
Never noticed on the TS or the pillar drill for example...

Your excellent video has made me think again!
Thanks a lot for making it Dom:)

Have you had chance to check your belt for cracks, or lumps missing or alignment yet ?

Regarding your tension pulley, (guessing this is like teaching granny how to eat eggs)
The bearings can be bought for very cheap, a fiver, the size and type will be stamped on the side of the bearing.
Reinstall them with the size facing you, for replacements again.
I can't say what the best lubrication would be for them,
but its worth noting that DW-40 will cause a skin, and many others dust will stick
to them, not sure if dry lube like a PTFE is the stuff you need,
hopefully others more experienced can reply on that.

Have to go at my machine as it started dancing about also,
so your not out at sea alone.
Seems like you will be sorted with this soon.

Tom
 

DomD

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This is all really interesting to me, as I wouldn't have thought the belt had much influence on things, regarding blade tracking.
Never noticed on the TS or the pillar drill for example...
It may not be the belt of course but its probably worth a shot given its a simple fix and I can't seem to find anything else wrong.

Have you had chance to check your belt for cracks, or lumps missing or alignment yet ?
The belt seems to be in good condition so hopefully it won't need replacing.

The bearings in the speed control tensioner have been installed with the size facing away so I can't buy them until I take apart the assembly. Unfortunately I don't have circlip pliers so can't take it apart yet: they are arriving tomorrow so another small delay before I can make progress.

I was also planning on getting a good Axcaliber blade for calibration, but they all seem to be out of stock (3405mm, 3/4"). Maybe a thick gauge TuffSaws one will do.

Dom
 

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It may not be the belt of course but its probably worth a shot given its a simple fix and I can't seem to find anything else wrong.
It might be me jumping to conclusions, but what's visible to me is the guidepost
cover is shaking less with the blade installed.

If you still have the blade installed and under tension, it might be worth seeing if the pulley lines up with the wheel using a pair of straightedges of some sort that will fit into the cabinet.
One against the front or back of the wheel and another on the pulley,
Worth a check of both axis.



One experiment to see whether your machine needs to be bolted down or not,
might be to see how it runs with no belt at all.
It might make possible misalignment issues more obvious, but it would be good to know....
as an aside, and I cannot say it will be the same scenario, but on his most recent bandsaw build video, Matthias Wandel mentioned the machine vibrated less whilst not being bolted down.

I would love to see some input about this from others..

The bearings in the speed control tensioner have been installed with the size facing away so I can't buy them until I take apart the assembly. Unfortunately I don't have circlip pliers so can't take it apart yet: they are arriving tomorrow so another small delay before I can make progress.
Make sure to press on the outer race of the bearing if it's going into something. and the opposite race if going onto a shaft, Jack Forsberg(Jack English Machines) has some good videos on this on youtube, if the fit is difficult.

I was also planning on getting a good Axcaliber blade for calibration, but they all seem to be out of stock (3405mm, 3/4"). Maybe a thick gauge TuffSaws one will do.
Axi made me some up when I emailed them, not sure if anywhere is working now?

I'm about to tackle my machine now, it suddenly decide to vibrate like mad, after a only a small cut, I suspect my belt is the cause so will document any difference,
with some video...
That's if the old belt makes it...
This could make a big difference to the tracking adjustment, and have a knock on effect on adjustment and the dressing job I had done previously...
That may have to be a follow up job for the next wee while, plenty of faffing could be required due to my dodgy bottom tire, too cold to even think about installing it.
I'm quite interested if the machine will run as bad with the blade removed.


With everything setup as it should be... the way I see it there may be two reference points on the bandsaw.
1.The guidepost, many are non adjustable, and very much preferably parallel with the blade, possibly the best thing to shoot for, as a reference.
2. The column of the machine, plumb wise.
I would think of the motor being adjustable to suit the machine.

I'll be back with more
Tom
 

Ttrees

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Morning
I was kept busy cleaning the place so I didn't get the time to have a proper go at sorting my saw out.
I went to the trouble of fettling a level to see if I could get my saw a bit more stable, by placing it on the base in both axis for a change, had used plumb bob before,
but ended up where I started, by getting the table level, as lower tire is thinner.
The table is at 90 to the blade, but not level like it once was, more noticeable on a 24" saw with something going on with the base, I might place it on something flat to get a better idea at some point.
I am definitely going to put the new tire on when I get the chance, so I can have the frame as level as it will go.
I will also delve into this further at a later date.
Anyway, the above not an issue you will have as your tires are the same height.

I'd love to get an idea on how stable your saws are guys ..
In terms of being able to sway it fore and aft.

I had a look at my belt and it needs to be replaced,
I was able to rotate it 180 degrees, I was thinking it was actually looser.
Silly me was thinking it would be easy to adjust the belt, but if I wanted to do that, I'd need to unbolt the motor.
It seems a new belt might be nice and tight the way things are.


So even with things like the belt a bit loose, and not properly plumbed,
my machine seems very smooth running without a blade, (I left a blade on the table for good measure)
It was tracking beforehand, something like in your video, maybe a bit worse, and vibrating more so whilst running, so is the opposite state of affairs! :ROFLMAO:
This to me suggests your tires aren't all that bad.


I'd try and isolate that vibration first, running without belt,
Maybe even just remove it for running your hand in the groove for the belt on the wheel, to see if some sort of casting defect of lump might be to blame?

Here is a sorry attempt for a video, which paused halfway due to camera issues.
Hopefully these links work.
Going to see if I can get a belt soon and see how things go.
before I delve further.
Tom
 
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clogs

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Vamos, Crete, GREECE.......
just to note...as belts get older that can stretch but not all over...just a short section......
also being stood with tension isn't so good for them.....a partially stretched belt would give the same symtoms as an unbalanced wheel /motor/pulley...
looking at the vid with the bottom wheel running...that drive belt really doesn't look right to me.....
a new belt would not cost much..prob about £5-8 at a bearing /transmission shop .....
try and buy the belt with the inner edged notched..they do have a prop name but at a loss at the mo....
these belt will take a tighter radius pulley and seem softer/more flexi.....
 

Ttrees

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Having a think about this again Dom
Would it be worth also putting a string around the wheel and motor pulley and comparing it to a straight edge on the wheel?

It seems like the belt tension pulley might be hiding a possible issue, so
could save you checking this out with a shorter belt.

I will do an update on some checking out my machine in this regard, as well as some other stuff.
Hopefully the place will be open.


Tom
 

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Looks like my list of things to check is growing! I'm going to head up tomorrow and do the following:
1) See how the machine runs with no belt attached and check the groove the belt runs in is in ok condition
2) Check the belt alignment with levels to make sure the motor groove and wheel groove are directly above/below each other

I don't think the motor or mount is easily adjustable though I suppose the lower wheel can be tilted up with the lower wheel adjustment bolts. This would affect the coplanarity of the wheel and motor pulley.

Thank you very much for the videos. It seems the noise and vibration level of my machine really are not normal! This makes me suspicious that the motor may be causing the issue as nothing else makes much noise: running it with the belt off will help determine if this is the case.

looking at the vid with the bottom wheel running...that drive belt really doesn't look right to me.....
a new belt would not cost much..prob about £5-8 at a bearing /transmission shop .....
try and buy the belt with the inner edged notched..they do have a prop name but at a loss at the mo....
these belt will take a tighter radius pulley and seem softer/more flexi.....
Probably a good idea for such a low price if I think it is the belt causing my issues. Are you suggesting a cogged V-belt? I'd probably try to buy online unless any shops are near me.

Having a think about this again Dom
Would it be worth also putting a string around the wheel and motor pulley and comparing it to a straight edge on the wheel?
Would just using the belt not work for this? I have a small level that will hopefully fit.

When I was troubleshooting earlier in the week I noticed that as the saw span up, it seemed to vibrate more and more up until a point (I assume its resonant frequency?) then the vibrations began to reduce beyond this speed. I will try to get a video.

As for stability, my saw is very difficult to topple by pushing from the top of the cutting side but not that hard if pushing from the top of the other side - it would still be impossible to do it by accident though!

Emailing Axminster is a good idea; are the Ground Tooth blades the ones to go for?

I really appreciate all your help,
Dom
 

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I spent a few hours today troubleshooting.
I began by taking off the belt and lower wheel and just seeing what the vibration was like with the motor in there on its own:

There is a little, but it is minimal so I don't think the motor is the problem.

I noticed that the bottom wheel nut wasn't very tight - I'm guessing this is normal as it needs to allow for adjustment from the four bolts? I used a square to adjust the upper wheel shaft and the drive pulley and ensure they were both perpendicular to the side of the saw.

I unthreaded the nut and you can see the collar that allows movement when tightened down below:
IMG_20210123_152506.jpg


I then checked the v belt grooves: they seemed fine other than a little surface rust - no casting defects visible.
IMG_20210123_152333.jpg


Next I reinstalled the lower wheel and belt and span the saw up to see if any adjustments had helped. It definitely seemed a bit quieter but the table saw still vibrating. I installed a blade and it was still moving back and forth.

This suggests it is either a problem with the belt, the belt tension or the coplanarity of the drive pulley and the lower wheel. I tried to check they were in line but couldn't find a good method: I will have another shot at it.

I am going to buy a replacement belt to ensure that's not the issue. The current belt is printed with "B-1727" and "2012-02". I'm assuming this means that it is a type B V-Belt with 68" internal length which I could buy a replacement for here: BX68 (17x1727 Li) Cogged V Belt - V Belts - Bearing Shop UK
My only concern is that the date suggests this is already a replacement belt so the length could be wrong. Am I best measuring the ideal belt length somehow?

Finally I have been trying to take apart the tensioner pulley and have got the shaft out but now need to remove the bearings from the pulley casing. Is there a tool/method that would allow me to do this without damaging the pulley?
IMG_20210123_171411.jpg


Many thanks,
Dom
 
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