Ashley Isle's Chisels - So Dissapointed

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sunnybob":3buz61p5 said:
I got very angry when I first started this hobby, and am still annoyed, that a tool sold for cutting wood needs to be sharpened or modified before it can be used for such. I find it amazing that so many of you accept this.

If a manufacturer cant supply a tool fit for purpose, then its a dam poor show as far as I'm concerned.

Would you buy a new car that needed an engine tune up before you could drive it away?

Tools and cars are not the same thing. You need to be able to maintain a tool to reasonably work, as you've got to do that several times per session in the shop. It's not assumed that the buyer of a car will know anything beyond driving it.

At any rate, these are not consumer goods like a radio, etc, and I certainly wouldn't want to pay someone at the factory to polish the back of a chisel and then hone it - we all like our chisels prepared differently, and most of us don't like to pay for that. I certainly don't. In the world of straight razors, we get razors that have been honed by someone at the factory (dovo for example). The honing job is less than optimal, but we have to pay someone there to do it. I'd rather they didn't, it's more work to clean up their job than it would be to start fresh, but they *do* assume that a lot of their buyers won't be able to hone a razor. I'd hate to be in that position, though - starting to shave with a straight razor and then having to use one that pulls at hair and doesn't cut a clean path.

The tradition of these tools goes back far enough to points where chisels were sold from makers without handles. The buyer was looking for the part of the chisel they couldn't make, and they did the rest of the fitting out themselves.

I'll bet that if AI found the need for users to buy prepared chisels, they could probably manage to do that for another 10 pounds per. I'd certainly do that.

I'd like to pat my own shoulders, as a couple of people I've shipped planes to have remarked that they've never before gotten a tool that they could take out of the box and use (I prepare the iron, hone it, set up the cap iron properly so that people can see what an appropriate set is to reduce tearout and ship the planes with the wedge in them ready to cut). The difference is that I don't expect anyone buying a wooden plane from me (for the cost of the materials that it takes for me to make it, of course - that way I don't have to listen to anyone complain about the price) to be able to figure out how to diagnose clogging or fit problems, and I actually *use* the planes enough to confirm they work well before shipping them. They are visibly used. Can you imagine the rubbish storm I'd get from some buyers if I actually made those tools for a profit and they showed up with minor marks of use from testing them?

3 years or so ago, a now professional planemaker and i compared notes when we were stabbing out how to make a good double iron plane. He asked if I thought I'd move on to starting to sell planes (like for more than the cost of materials) and I said "no, I'd blow my stack at buyers who think everyone should have the same return policy as amazon". I doubt he can use his planes before shipping them to make sure they work well, and so at least early on, he relaxed some of the areas in the plane (the wear, etc) to make sure that they'd function well in spite of less than optimal users.

I can't imagine what it's like for toolmakers like AI to supply something as good as their chisels are, for so little money - if the dealer gets $27, I'd be surprised if AI gets $20 or much north of that - and then be berated because someone didn't flatten backs and prepare edges. To appreciate how good the chisels are for the price, one only needs to actually try to make one as good. LN spends the money of the buyer doing lots of stuff that nobody but a newbie would want done, but that's their market - people who haven't used tools much, and in many cases, won't ever use them much or even at all. Most long term users, I'd think, would prefer the AI chisels and have no issues with setup - and be glad they didn't pay twice or three times as much for the same thing with smaller grinding marks and a square flat bevel.
 
Oh my, that's out of square by a very large amount. I don't blame you for sending it back. After all, grinding it square on a bench grinder is not something anyone can just do. No siree, it takes decades of training. Only the most accomplished woodworkers can manage this feat. First you have to put a square line on the back with a square and a magic marker. Than you have to turn on the bench grinder, put the chisel on the blade support and slowly but surely move it forward until you touch the stone. And that's just the beginning of the whole process! I've tried to do it many times but even now, after 20 years of working as a shipwright, I still can't manage it! /s I wish someone would teach me how to do it.
 
PalmRoyale":1xt7j74e said:
Oh my, that's out of square by a very large amount. I don't blame you for sending it back. After all, grinding it square on a bench grinder is not something anyone can just do. No siree, it takes decades of training. Only the most accomplished woodworkers can manage this feat. First you have to put a square line on the back with a square and a magic marker. Than you have to turn on the bench grinder, put the chisel on the blade support and slowly but surely move it forward until you touch the stone. And that's just the beginning of the whole process! I've tried to do it many times but even now, after 20 years of working as a shipwright, I still can't manage it! /s I wish someone would teach me how to do it.

Yes but, if you read what the OP wrote......... He says he is not confident with the grind wheel and then it's almost inevitable he would blue the end. Or maybe you were perfect from day one?

If I had shelled out money for new tools I d expect them to be square , as someone has already said its basic manufacturing

Having said all that I have never bought a new chisel
 
lurker":1hf8ghy1 said:
PalmRoyale":1hf8ghy1 said:
Oh my, that's out of square by a very large amount. I don't blame you for sending it back. After all, grinding it square on a bench grinder is not something anyone can just do. No siree, it takes decades of training. Only the most accomplished woodworkers can manage this feat. First you have to put a square line on the back with a square and a magic marker. Than you have to turn on the bench grinder, put the chisel on the blade support and slowly but surely move it forward until you touch the stone. And that's just the beginning of the whole process! I've tried to do it many times but even now, after 20 years of working as a shipwright, I still can't manage it! /s I wish someone would teach me how to do it.

Yes but, if you read what the OP wrote......... He says he is not confident with the grind wheel and then it's almost inevitable he would blue the end. Or maybe you were perfect from day one?

If I had shelled out money for new tools I d expect them to be square , as someone has already said its basic manufacturing

Having said all that I have never bought a new chisel

I am intending to practice grinding on the cheapo set of irwin marples i bought years ago - As i have pushed to improve my hand tool use I realised mastering bench grinding was a key skill over the long term plus it will give me more confidence to buy rough tools at boot sales.... I am just not ready to do it on £133 worth of new chisels (hammer)
 
DW wrote... "
Tools and cars are not the same thing. You need to be able to maintain a tool to reasonably work, as you've got to do that several times per session in the shop. It's not assumed that the buyer of a car will know anything beyond driving it."

Youve just proved my point, not disproved.

A chisel (saw /plane/ insert any bladed tool here) is a tool sold for cutting wood.
A car is sold for driving.

Yes a car needs maintenance, and yes a chisel needs maintenance. But maintenance by definition is how to KEEP a tool in the condition its sold to you.

Yes, you can customise your particular chisel, exactly as you can customise your car, but at least the car was fit for purpose upon purchase.
 
sunnybob":3l0hp4tz said:
Yes, you can customise your particular chisel, exactly as you can customise your car, but at least the car was fit for purpose upon purchase.
Are you claiming a chisel with a bevel that's 1 or 2 degrees out of square isn't fit for purpose? If so, you should just stop using hand tools.
 
There's no exact science to regrinding a chisel. It's certainly not something you should feel hesitant about doing. Keeping it cool so it doesn't overheat the metal, should definitely be on the top of the list. Having the cutting edge 100% square isn't as important.
If I were you, I'd save buying the expensive chisels until sharpening/grinding the other cheapos become second nature. It's nice to have decent quality tools, but pointless if you dont use them.
A sharp cheapo chisel will out perform an expensive blunt chisel any day of the week !!

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
sunnybob":26lm4a3s said:
DW wrote... "
Tools and cars are not the same thing. You need to be able to maintain a tool to reasonably work, as you've got to do that several times per session in the shop. It's not assumed that the buyer of a car will know anything beyond driving it."

Youve just proved my point, not disproved.

A chisel (saw /plane/ insert any bladed tool here) is a tool sold for cutting wood.
A car is sold for driving.

Yes a car needs maintenance, and yes a chisel needs maintenance. But maintenance by definition is how to KEEP a tool in the condition its sold to you.

Yes, you can customise your particular chisel, exactly as you can customise your car, but at least the car was fit for purpose upon purchase.

They never sell you a car with a full tank of fuel, though, do they? Couple of cup-fulls of vapour if you're lucky - unless you pay Rolls-Royce prices.
 
ColeyS1":1v78qpmz said:
There's no exact science to regrinding a chisel. It's certainly not something you should feel hesitant about doing. Keeping it cool so it doesn't overheat the metal, should definitely be on the top of the list. Having the cutting edge 100% square isn't as important.
If I were you, I'd save buying the expensive chisels until sharpening/grinding the other cheapos become second nature. It's nice to have decent quality tools, but pointless if you dont use them.
A sharp cheapo chisel will out perform an expensive blunt chisel any day of the week !!

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

I am confident sharpening on my diamond stones / water stones but grinding is something i know i will have to do at some point once the bevel is past being able to be effectively honed
 
Petey83":wbtm5osc said:
ColeyS1":wbtm5osc said:
There's no exact science to regrinding a chisel. It's certainly not something you should feel hesitant about doing. Keeping it cool so it doesn't overheat the metal, should definitely be on the top of the list. Having the cutting edge 100% square isn't as important.
If I were you, I'd save buying the expensive chisels until sharpening/grinding the other cheapos become second nature. It's nice to have decent quality tools, but pointless if you dont use them.
A sharp cheapo chisel will out perform an expensive blunt chisel any day of the week !!

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

I am confident sharpening on my diamond stones / water stones but grinding is something i know i will have to do at some point once the bevel is past being able to be effectively honed

If you're not happy with a power grinder (OK - fair enough) you could square that up on the coarse side of a double-sided oilstone in a few minutes. I've never used one, but I suspect a coarse diamond stone would be even quicker.
 
sunnybob":13ubaw2l said:
DW wrote... "
Tools and cars are not the same thing. You need to be able to maintain a tool to reasonably work, as you've got to do that several times per session in the shop. It's not assumed that the buyer of a car will know anything beyond driving it."

Youve just proved my point, not disproved.

A chisel (saw /plane/ insert any bladed tool here) is a tool sold for cutting wood.
A car is sold for driving.

Yes a car needs maintenance, and yes a chisel needs maintenance. But maintenance by definition is how to KEEP a tool in the condition its sold to you.

Yes, you can customise your particular chisel, exactly as you can customise your car, but at least the car was fit for purpose upon purchase.

I would bet that a lot of chisels used for construction are used without anything done to them - grind marks and all.

Regardless of how you want to word fight about what maintenance is, woodworking tools and cars are not the same, and the market is not the same. Nor is the history of their offering. Unless you buy a tool from a one-off blacksmith (even then, you might get something really out of geometry, but sharpened on a buff or something), you will need to do initial preparation.

I guarantee that for 99.9% of woodworking, the purchaser could've ignored flattening the back of the chisel and honed the bevel a minor amount, removed the wire edge (be it with a strop or a finer stone) and shaved hair. And then gainfully used the chisel just fine out of square.

In terms of use after initial setup, someone not using a grinder will be someone who is sorry when they start working a large cross section of A2 steel at 61 hardness. Coarse sandpaper or a carborundum stone is about all that will do it quickly, and the latter is something that will vex beginners because they don't stay flat that easily and they're not easy to flatten.

I had the same experience as mentioned above with a dry grinder. There were so many horror stories about them that I was overly cautious and never burned an edge until I sharpened a high speed steel iron and burned the edge on purpose to see what would happen (in that case, nothing - some HSS can get orange hot at the grind point and be just fine in terms of hardness once it cools). Light touch, freshly dressed wheel and coarse grit - it'll be easy. Dip each pass if necessary, I don't dip at all and haven't for years. I cool a chisel by pulling it across my palm.

I feel some pain for the makers of these tools, but the market they're selling to is what it is. It's no longer mostly professional users like it may have been 40 years ago.
 
Cheshirechappie":1x3kz9ak said:
They never sell you a car with a full tank of fuel, though, do they? Couple of cup-fulls of vapour if you're lucky - unless you pay Rolls-Royce prices.

I thought about that, but didn't want to push the argument further!!

Sometimes there is plastic on parts that you have to remove, too.
 
D_W":20br1s3v said:
Cheshirechappie":20br1s3v said:
They never sell you a car with a full tank of fuel, though, do they? Couple of cup-fulls of vapour if you're lucky - unless you pay Rolls-Royce prices.

I thought about that, but didn't want to push the argument further!!

Sometimes there is plastic on parts that you have to remove, too.

Yep and a large percentage of new cars are not fit for purpose "straight out of the box", just need to look at the huge amount of warranty work that goes through the dealerships. My Audi now 9 months old has been in several times albeit for minor "adjustments", was in yesterday in fact to update software to fully enable mirrors to fold and other functions intended to be available on purchase.

Just don't get me started about Microsoft products not being fit to use. :lol:

I've just ordered a new touring caravan, no gas bottles included, not fit for purpose? :wink:

As far as the chisels are concerned, I see the Op viewpoint but I personally would have kept them, certainly the carving chisels I own are decent steel.
 
Lons":16h531xu said:
Yep and a large percentage of new cars are not fit for purpose "straight out of the box", just need to look at the huge amount of warranty work that goes through the dealerships. My Audi now 9 months old has been in several times albeit for minor "adjustments", was in yesterday in fact to update software to fully enable mirrors to fold and other functions intended to be available on purchase.

Just don't get me started about Microsoft products not being fit to use. :lol:

I've just ordered a new touring caravan, no gas bottles included, not fit for purpose? :wink:

As far as the chisels are concerned, I see the Op viewpoint but I personally would have kept them, certainly the carving chisels I own are decent steel.

never had an audi, but had two volkswagens, and can commiserate on those. One of them had an audi powertrain in it - other than the actual metallic parts of the engine, I think everything around the entire motor was junk. People in america don't like cars that require a lot of work, thus honda and toyota cars are all over the place here. When I asked the dealer why volkswagens had plug wires and breather hoses and sensors and window motors, and on and on that couldn't last more than a couple of years, he shrugged. When I said it seemed unreasonable to me to have to replace those things when other cars don't require that level of work, he said "people shouldn't let money get in the way of taking care of their cars" (!!!)

Audi and volkswagen have lost a lot of market share here, but more volkswagen than audi.

I'd have traded some initial work on those cars if I could've avoided the very long list of problems each had starting not long after they were new.
 
Cheshirechappie":trads1nu said:
Petey83":trads1nu said:
ColeyS1":trads1nu said:
There's no exact science to regrinding a chisel. It's certainly not something you should feel hesitant about doing. Keeping it cool so it doesn't overheat the metal, should definitely be on the top of the list. Having the cutting edge 100% square isn't as important.
If I were you, I'd save buying the expensive chisels until sharpening/grinding the other cheapos become second nature. It's nice to have decent quality tools, but pointless if you dont use them.
A sharp cheapo chisel will out perform an expensive blunt chisel any day of the week !!

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

I am confident sharpening on my diamond stones / water stones but grinding is something i know i will have to do at some point once the bevel is past being able to be effectively honed

If you're not happy with a power grinder (OK - fair enough) you could square that up on the coarse side of a double-sided oilstone in a few minutes. I've never used one, but I suspect a coarse diamond stone would be even quicker.

He probably could. But its a new tool and he shouldn't have too. He has bought what people regard as a quality tool and in this day and age you'd think they could get that right from the factory if they're grinding them, themselves!!!!! Especially these days in the land of t'web you'll get threads like these started cuz a basic grind seems beyond you...

Personally if I were he I'd have contacted Iles of my disappointment and had them pick-up fix, and return the item than buy the LN's - but he aint me.
 
I'm dreading going in the workshop tomorrow to see how many faulty out of square Ai chisels I have to throw out :lol:


Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
ColeyS1":nbnrfza6 said:
Why do they need to be square ? Makes no difference to how well they'll cut !

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

If anything, they will cut even better, because of the slicing action. 8)
 
D_W":pt8mo0nv said:
Audi and volkswagen have lost a lot of market share here, but more volkswagen than audi.

I'd have traded some initial work on those cars if I could've avoided the very long list of problems each had starting not long after they were new.

I think we've strayed off topic OW :lol:
Don't get me wrong, I really like my Audi which is a highly specced A6 Avant quatro and the problems weren't major, just little niggles however my point was that in general cars are rarely fault free and neither are many other products.

Getting back to the chisels, I bet not a single one of mine is exactly square though I don't take a try square to them to check. That would be down to my sharpening skills or lack of but doesn't stop them slicing through wood effortlessly so I won't be changing anytime soon.

Bob
 
I would like to see a piccy of the AI chisels looking head on at the tip of the edge.
I'd bet the grinding profiles are quite symmetrical.
This is what the OP's picture suggested to me.
If I was to be super critical of a chisel I would look for these few things mainly....
The symmetry of the grind in the long bevels each side of the chisel,
The symmetry of the lands on dovetailing ones, and the flatness of the backs, and the quality of the edge.
The rest does not bother me like a out of square ground cutting edge TBH
 
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