On the other hand we in the Uk are thinking we are so safe that we are becoming dangerous, protected by our perception that everything is safe so we cannot come to harm.
Any must watch woodworking documentary movies?
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TheTiddles
Established Member
If only there were some form of national accident statistics to confirm that, alas no, all we have is 40+ years of evidence to the contrary.
back to the topic…
I find the best content is on YouTube, many makers of trivially simple simple things if that’s your bag, a few really high end makers and copies of most of the old programmes. If your interest is in pre 19th century methods just buy an old woodwork book secondhand, that’ll cover most of the techniques.
bourbon
Established Member
so you are condoning unsafe working practices then
. Merry Christmas.
In the home workshop the only person responsible for your welfare is you, no one else and so therefore if you decide to work in a given way then it is only you to blame, don't fall into the trap of thinking it only happens to someone else or be over confident with safe working practices and think my machine has all the guards in place and is safe, it is not because the safety guards on machinery for cutting are only a risk reduction measure because the cutting tool is not fully enclosed. I personally do not use a top guard on my table saw, why? because I have enough sense to ensure a safe working enviroment for myself, well illuminated, area kept clean and free from trip hazzards when saw in use and I use push sticks to keep my anatomy well away from that blade. Simple analogy is what is more dangerous, a lion in the middle of a field or one that is hidding in a bush!
Before you rely on those stats, you should look to see how many are actually hobbyist woodworkers. The bulk of them are trade workers who end up on site (and are unskilled) using tools in *very* unsafe ways. By unskilled, I mean that they're either overly confident folks who use saws relatively little and may be trying to show off, or they're people who are told to use a table saw and have no experience with it at all.
Top guards may not be standard here now, but riving knives are. Most saws do have a dopey fence design (I guess because it makes people feel like they're more secure) that run full length and lock front and back. It's sort of pointless in lower cost saws because slop keeps them from locking down identically each time.
I know a lot of hobbyists here. I don't know any who have gotten more than kickback from a table saw, but do know two who have nipped their pinky fingers on a jointer - both of those folks did the nipping decades into hobby woodworking, just a lapse.
If you watch a skilled worker work and they make something you could learn from and all you can gather from it is that they're "condoning unsafe practices", then that says a lot about the state of the hobbyist woodworking world. But this isn't a shot at you, it's sort of what everyone is taught - constant discussion of safety, and not a whole lot of making of much (and lots of trivial this is right or that is from guru instructors - who do better if you don't sort of figure things out on your own).
Maybe the most "what?!" video I've seen is some guy resawing guitar bodies in central or south america (where there's no regulation). The person doing the work had a circular saw blade mounted on a spindle in a plane above the table and was using that (no guard, etc) and it looked just like the recipe for a million different accidents.
But that was easy to compartmentalize - what I wanted to see was the process being used to make the guitars. You can easily segment off the part that you feel isn't safe and just don't do it that way.
Doug71
Established Member
Don't think that's quite right, I think a better analogy would be comparing a guarded blade to a lion in a cage, it can only bite you if you put your hand in
TheTiddles
Established Member
But if you can clearly see it then you are less likely to put your hand in, but we must not forget those who will want to put there hand in just to see if it does really bite! Totally agree with " Most saws do have a dopey fence design (I guess because it makes people feel like they're more secure) " and in some cases no guard can be safer than one just there to say it has one. The guard on my Bosch mitre saw is a hazzard, if you have never used the saw then it would be dangerous for several reasons.
Nonsense - I suggested you parse the data and maybe examine what you're looking at. Your response is to imply that I'm not referring to data. A very typical internet jockey type response. Just want an answer, right? If it's meaningful, who knows...
It would appear that about 3000 TS injuries per year 20 years ago required admittance to a hospital. The remainder (92%) were generally lacerations and treatment and discharge. 3000 seems like a lot to me, but the US is five times the size of the UK.
I would assume that the injury rate is far less now due to a change in attitude, but I don't see updated data parsing injury types by occupational vs. not. If someone cuts their thumb and gets 5 stitches, that's not meaningful. It's not disabling. If there's an amputation, that's meaningful. If there's permanent disability, that's meaningful.
I don't personally use a TS much - constant use of a TS is generally (on a non-occupational basis) isn't really needed at all. When I use a TS, it's with push sticks (two) and a riving knife (which is standard on saws here now). I don't need a nanny to add more to the price and prefer the level of individual freedom here to there. If you want something like sawstop, it's easy to find. If you don't, it's easy to find.
If, on the other hand, someone is on a jobsite and their boss is forcing them to do something stupid or being negligent, that's a different thing and worthy of penalty and monetary settlement. That's not what we're talking about.
TheTiddles
Established Member
TLDR: Accidents have been reducing consistently for over 30-years.
Instead of yet another thumb stain inducing tirade, have you got some evidence? This is probably a rhetorical question, I recon I know the answer. For completeness here’s mine…
https://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/causinj/index.htm
Instead of yet another thumb stain inducing tirade, have you got some evidence? This is probably a rhetorical question, I recon I know the answer. For completeness here’s mine…
https://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/causinj/index.htm
They've been reducing here over 30 years, also.
I'd imagine some of the accident reduction in GB is that your workplace is a shell of what it was 30 years ago. Our manufacturing and exposure is also not what it used to be (in terms of high risk jobs). We could pat ourselves on the back for that, but it just shifts the injuries elsewhere.
You can win this - there's a constant contest to do everything but build and make things. you get to be the king of that group, I don't want any part of it.
I can't even say what my father would call men who want to nanny other men because...well, those same men now will not just huff off, they'll tattle.
I'd imagine some of the accident reduction in GB is that your workplace is a shell of what it was 30 years ago. Our manufacturing and exposure is also not what it used to be (in terms of high risk jobs). We could pat ourselves on the back for that, but it just shifts the injuries elsewhere.
You can win this - there's a constant contest to do everything but build and make things. you get to be the king of that group, I don't want any part of it.
I can't even say what my father would call men who want to nanny other men because...well, those same men now will not just huff off, they'll tattle.
TheTiddles
Established Member
That’d be no then.
In the UK a worker can refuse to undertake a task they deem unsafe, it could be defective machinery, an unsafe location or they feel they have insufficient training or knowledge, but if they knowingly do something unsafe then they could be liable for business loses.
That is probably one of the biggest reasons why our HSE incidents are now lower, I would say we have lost 90% + of heavy industry and mining, probably 75% + of manufacturing and I think one of our higher risk occupations is now farming with construction running close. So it is not the workplace that is just a shell but the UK itself, gone are the days when we could honestly call ourselves great britain.
heimlaga
Established Member
Some youtube videos on older woodworking methods and traditional products:
-The use of a skottbenk, a traditional Norwegian method for shooting straight edges accurately by hand
-Chairmaking in Budal, Norway
-Making a traditional reindeer sled in Karasjohka on the border between Norway and Sweden
-Boatbuilding in northern Sweden. Freehand build with modern transom.
-Building a Sognafaering, a two man row boat from Sogn in Norway. Old style freehand building.
-Making oars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyYLYab3EN8
-Building a Nordfjord boat in Norway. Old style freehand building.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZQAJyWF6MM
-Boatbuilding in Sweden. Modern style with moulds and square stern.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o4Ilg2LICM
-Building a haapio, a traditional dugout canoe from Satakunta in Finland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j37Lmm8LYoE
-Making a basket. Finland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sWYt-n_Jzg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPyhNKnRuno-Barrel making in Norway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW7pdBmX21w
-Making skis in Telemerk, Norway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5_A_ZF4tWo
-The use of a skottbenk, a traditional Norwegian method for shooting straight edges accurately by hand
-Chairmaking in Budal, Norway
-Making a traditional reindeer sled in Karasjohka on the border between Norway and Sweden
-Boatbuilding in northern Sweden. Freehand build with modern transom.
-Building a Sognafaering, a two man row boat from Sogn in Norway. Old style freehand building.
-Making oars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyYLYab3EN8
-Building a Nordfjord boat in Norway. Old style freehand building.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZQAJyWF6MM
-Boatbuilding in Sweden. Modern style with moulds and square stern.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o4Ilg2LICM
-Building a haapio, a traditional dugout canoe from Satakunta in Finland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j37Lmm8LYoE
-Making a basket. Finland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sWYt-n_Jzg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPyhNKnRuno-Barrel making in Norway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW7pdBmX21w
-Making skis in Telemerk, Norway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5_A_ZF4tWo
How strange - I came here to see what others had recommended as worth watching as per Tibi's original question but once again it appears another thread completely unrelated to workshop safety is turning into a discussion about workshop safety.
I looked up our incidence. Osha is boasting that in the last 45 years, disabling workplace injuries and deaths are about 20-25% (depending on the measure) of the rate per full time employee. Which is fine, we expect that. But I'd guess a large amount of that has to do with a shift from manufacturing to services, and quite a lot has to do with workplace insurance coming in and saying "not doing that here, or you won't have insurance". And, of course, if you end up on the news at a given location, then suddenly the local authorities will take interest because you're making them look bad.
As far as rights, when I use the term above "the employer makes you" to be more like the small crew (fewer and fewer these days) where labor is intinerant and the boss gives you a TS, a stack of wood and tells you to make twice as many pieces half as wide. I don't think most employers can make anyone do anything unsafe now, though if you are in a rough industry (like at a concrete plant) and you manage to find every single job unsafe, they'll probably find another "with cause" reason to get rid of you.
heimlaga
Established Member
More:
-Whitling with knife and axe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNkKOdmxwOs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNkKOdmxwOs
-Spoon carving in Sweden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkI9sl9D2s0
-Chair making in Bollebygd, Sweden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYm89pDkO8w
-Whitling with knife and axe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNkKOdmxwOs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNkKOdmxwOs
-Spoon carving in Sweden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkI9sl9D2s0
-Chair making in Bollebygd, Sweden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYm89pDkO8w
You could use google and find OSHA non-fatal injuries. They're declining here, too. You're talking about TS safety to hobbyists and making reference to workplace data. You do realize they're different, don't you?
Aside from the fact that your site reference tells us nothing about table saw safety per full time worker. OSHA's rate here is 2.9 vs. about 2 for your report. I would venture to guess that for every 100k full time employees, there's about the same proportion of physical work being done in the US vs. UK - as in, roughly a third less there than here).
But that still dances around the actual topic - are you worried about hobbyists getting hurt by a TS at work when they work at a computer?
(i'm guessing the idea of hobbyist work may be foreign because I got as far back in your posts as august and then ran out of steam, because all I could find was you asking for "data" when someone made a claim about changes in cast iron, and some lecturing people in threads where they probably didn't need your opinion. It's good you're here helping people make things and showing examples.
)
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