Another question cabinetmaker or joiner

[SlimShavings]

After reading my book I find that the "joiner" has been replaced by the cabinet-maker. What is the Mother Lands interpretation of the difference. Please no more long reading lists

Oh yea is it joiner, joyner, or what is the correct spelling. Seems I see it different ways.

Thanks

 

[Smudger]

It is certainly never 'joyner' - don't know where that came from...

A joiner is an architectural carpenter, a cabinet maker makes furniture - is that not the difference?

 

[SlimShavings]

IN this book he is a joiner and makes furniture. His work is done with hatchets,saws and planes. And is highly carved. I was amazed at the things he would let "get by". But it is a factual book. And he was considered one of the better joiners of his area.

 

[Chris Knight]

Joyner is an old form of the word and as to who did what job, there have always been arguments about it..

 

[DomValente]

So that's cleared that up then :?

Dom

 

[Smudger]

And in what year were ye Joyners and ye Carpentters discussing this revised job description for their occupacons?

 

[Woodmagnet]

A Carpenter is one who eyes up a job,
marks the line with chalk and cuts somewhere near it.
A Joiner is one who eyes up the job,
takes out his measure,makes a sketch on the back of a fag packet,
marks his wood with a pencil and cuts to the waste side.
A Cabinet Maker is one who eyes up a job,
takes out his measure makes a scale drawing,
marks his wood with a knife cut and bisects the cut when he saws. :lol:

 

[lurker]

I remember my ol' dad (a joiner) would get a little upset if anyone described him as a carpenter.

 

[chippy1970]

I class my self as a joiner when I finished my apprenticeship many years ago as a carpenter & joiner, a joiner was someone who worked in the workshop and a carpenter or chippy was out on site. I was a chippy back then but as I improved and started working with more expensive material I started to say I was a joiner. What I would like to know is when can you be a "Master Carpenter" anyone know.

 

[woodbloke]

As I understand it a carpenter is someone working in the building trade doing stuff mainly in softwood, a joiner is workshop based making stuff in hardwood for interiors (stairs, doors, windows) and a cabinet maker specializes in furniture, tho' I'm sure these boundaries get very smudged at times - Rob

 

[Escudo]

I was once called a wood butcher - I wonder where that fits in to the great scheme of things?

Esc.

 

[Sean the amateur]

I always thought that a joiner was a man who joined pieces of wood together.

Sean

 

[engineer one]

looks like the writing was from the era of Queen Elizabeth 1st and rather like many shakesperean manusripts a number of the letters we use now are not used then, for instance s and f are often used interchangeably.

i must say i thought joiners made something in the workshop,but mainly things like stairs, windows and doors etc.

carpenters tend to work on site, and of course these days are also called chippies, and with some of the work you can see where that came from.
they tend to make items which are then "built in" or permanently installed.

cabinet makers also tended to work in the shop, but mainly on moveable items like tables, cabinets etc.

but what do i know????? :twisted: :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[Smudger]

The original post was about joiners and cabinet makers, not carpenters. Both are carpenters, surely?

Yes, I know it is probably Jacobean, I was just being ironic that you have to go so far back to find 'joyner'!

 

[Loz_S]

A little etymological digression for anyone interested in all things "olde"...

The word "Ye" as seen in "Ye olde book shoppe" for example, came about purely by accident. It is in fact a mistranslation (or mispronunciation) of the word "THE". Old English used to use several different letters including the letter Thorn - Þ which represented the digraph TH. Unfortunately, nearly all printing sets of that era were made on the continent where there was no need for such letter. So English typesetters substituted the Þ symbol for the underused y, which for the poorly educated merely looked like a new word.

 

[Smudger]

Yes. Thorn and Eth (voiced and unvoiced) were real losses. Not correct that the 'Y' was used straight, it was very often done as a superscript, like this ʸᵉ

 

[engineer one]

smudger you are right the question was about joiners and cabinet makers, but i thought it was interesting to see that although almost every one who
works with wood could be called a carpenter, the more skilled trades wanted, and still want separation.

i wonder what you would call a pattern maker, who made the wooden patterns for castings etc? :roll:

if you check vans, certainly around london, they are all signed carpenters and joiners, or cabinet makers and carpenters.

certainly second fix guys are called chippies so what does that mean, and what is the root of that??? :?

paul :wink:

 

[Smudger]

Chippies are like Sparks - named after what they produce!

I imagine that at some time in the past there was a clear division of work between joiners and cabinet makers and possibly jobbing carpenters, who would have done both, but not to such a sophisticated standard as a cabinet maker. Mind you, I'm not sure the time thing is relevant, more likely there were people who worked in one category only or who crossed categories.

I'd call a pattern maker a pattern maker - a different skill set from either.

If you look at the origins of the word 'carpenter' - from the Norman French, 'C(h)arpentier' it tends to lean towards joinery, making building frames and working with larger timber. In the Latin from which the Old French derives a carpentarius made chariots. In France a cabinet maker is an 'ebeniste', a worker with ebony.

 

[engineer one]

actually i would tend to think that in the middle ages in britain when skills were trying to protect themselves, and started up and made guilds is when the schism occurred.

rather like specialisation in shipyards, guilds tended to splinter work, making it easier for bosses to lay workers off after their specific job had finished.

in stone work ,you have general masons, monumental masons, and letter cutters, all cut stone, but the chisels are different :lol: :twisted:

nice to learn more though.
paul :wink:

 

[Smudger]

Indentures may well be the answer - specialisation and protectionism. But there is more to it than a toolkit, surely - I remember watching some French restorers/builders making a traditional green oak timbered house. They laid it out in their yard, and were using axes, adzes and some very meaty chisels. All joints were pegged M&T, and they left the work out to season a bit before dismantling it and taking it to site for erection. It couldn't have been further from cabinet making. At those extremes would we expect one man to do both kinds of work? Very possibly, my wife and I were discussing this a few evenings ago, looking at the construction of our house (1914) where there is evidence of mouldings and built-in furniture, not to mention sash windows, being partly or wholly made on-site, by the same guys who were constructing the roof and putting in joists and floors. Or maybe the foreman got the creative jobs to do!