An Angel in the Midst....

[jimi43]

My never-ceasing quest for fine Gabriel woodies took a very definite upward boost today with a little surprise.

I bid and won a little group of four planes which arrived today....

At least two of these are identifiable....but we will go through them in reverse order....

First of all we have this slipped bead with boxed quirk (?) (you are either impressed with this description or if you know me you will know I am hoping I am not talking gonads! ).....

Now...I am just learning here on what these things do but I believe the popular theory is that the removable slip is to enable a small bead to be worked on the edge of a composite profile...(ok ok...I confess...I am reading this from Goodman!!! :mrgreen: )

The likelihood of me removing this slip is virtually zero as the steel screws are well and truly embedded in the slip!

Next along the row we have a rather intriguing plane indeed....

Marked only J.Stubbs which looks too primitive to be a maker's mark...this has a superb profile and a sole insert which appears to be lignum vitae....

In case your eyes are doing what mine did...this is a convex sole! I need to get out and hone this one up because this could be fun...any info guys???

Next...the first of the two named ones...a beautiful little No.6 hollow from Mr George Davis a Birmingham maker working out of 32 Bishop St. between 1823 and 1872.....

That is going to be a temporary keeper until I can find a No.6 Gabriel...and on the subject of this fine maker....

...and with a sole that is amazing! I need some help on describing this and fully understanding it's use but for now...I honed up the iron and it fair whizzed through some beech making a fine clean cut...

What an absolute joy to use...and a Gabriel too...

It also has a removable slip (four screws)...so I am sure it has other purposes than just making nice sliding dovetails...

More help needed on this one...please!!

I just need to get the dust off with meths and varying levels of linseed and we are going to have a play with all of these.

A really nice surprise in a pot luck auction...I'm well chuffed!

Jim

 

[AndyT]

Nice one!

I think your Stubs plane has been user-modified by the addition of that l-v strip, to make it into something like a side round - not a common shape at all.

Similarly, I think the Gabriel has passed through a period of being an old, unloved plane of no value, and has also been adapted, to cut sliding dovetails. I've got something similar and will post a picture later.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Nice one!

I think your Stubs plane has been user-modified by the addition of that l-v strip, to make it into something like a side round - not a common shape at all.

Similarly, I think the Gabriel has passed through a period of being an old, unloved plane of no value, and has also been adapted, to cut sliding dovetails. I've got something similar and will post a picture later.

Actually, your thoughts about the Stubbs matched my first impressions - the use of l-v rather than boxwood, the butt joint to the main body rather than dovetailing in, and the profile being nearer quarter-elliptic rather than quarter-round all suggest a user modification. Is it a special, or an attempt at a side round?

The dovetail plane is a new one on me. Never seen a side escapement dovetail plane.

Side beads are actually very common. Sets of graduated sizes come up on the 'bay quite regularly, and individual planes are almost as common as individual hollows and rounds. The smallest is usually 1/8", and the biggest I've seen is 1". I think the smaller ones are more applicable to furniture use, and the bigger ones to architectural detailing. That one looks to be about 1/2" - some have the size stamped on the heel.

 

[jimi43]

Interesting stuff guys...thanks for the initial views and clarification.

CC...the side bead has a 4 on the rear...so you are quite correct.

The side round appears to be keyed in with what looks like square boxing...difficult to tell until I clean it up a bit.

The Gabriel is certainly not one in the chest...but the recent thread on sliding dovetails has moved me towards making a pair and this little basic example is really easy to use and makes absolutely perfect cuts. Of course...in most cases to cut sliding dovetails across the grain a nicker would be required. I don't see me modifying this one though....just keep it for long grain work.

Off to dig up more info and clean these up...sharpen a few irons...do some testing....

Cheers again.

Jim

 

[AndyT]

Ok, just to help with shapes, here are a couple of mine.

This is a side round - probably an early one from the wedge shape - but unfortunately it's from the batch I bought that had been attacked with a disk sander and a bucket of polyurethane (they looked ok in the eBay pictures and I couldn't think why they were so pale!)

And this is a rebate plane - almost certainly 18th century from its length and shape:

which has been converted by the simple method of planing the sole at an angle and grinding the blade:

The maker appears to be "R Brine" who's not in BPM II - anyone know if he's in the third edition?
I have successfully used this to plane sliding dovetails across the grain, even without a nicker or a depth stop - you just have to hold it upright.

(PS - be careful Jim - £3 each with the P&P - you'll be snapping up the Jap chisels and Disston saws soon!)

 

[toolsntat]

Jim the Gabriel looks as others have said to have been a conversion but my take on it is that it is possibly now a rebate set with "spring" and integral fence? The "spring" lines look original on the toe, are they on the heal with possibly a size number? As for the slip?
Stubbs is not in BPM3 but I am sure one with the same mark has crossed my path.....

Andy your nice long plane is indeed early looking but alas R.BRINE is also not listed in 3. The R L looks an early stamp?
By the way you do you know who the late MAX OTT was ? He was a very learned gent and his fine collection was sold through Stanley's .....
This is the only link to him I can find for you
http://www.swissreview.co.uk/news.php?i ... all&max=50
but my pc won't do google so give him a try.

Cheers
Andy

 

[AndyT]

Thanks Andy - I'd not heard of Max Ott and his collection, but I do know I bought that plane from Pete's Antiques on eBay in November 2009, so it all fits together. This blog post shows a plane with the same mark.

I must start paying more attention to owners' names!

 

[richarnold]

i managed to end up with a few of Max Ott's planes myself, this one being my favorite. Its a hefty 5 3/8 of an inch wide, and was made by Thomas Philipson of London, and proberbly dates from around 1760. Max was a top cabinet maker, and i think he must have sharpened this plane up, because it has a razor sharp edge on the cutting iron.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

That's a beauty of a plane, Richard - but you can see why they invented the spindle moulder!

 

[adidat]

was the rope for the apprentice to pull on, to give the added omph!?

what a beautie!

adidat

 

[richarnold]

It's no joke, it realy was for the apprentice to pull on. just to add, the profile would have been formed with hollows, and rounds in the first instance, then the final cuts done with the cornice plane. I have tried it out, but only in some soft cedar, and that was hard enough work!!!

 

[jimi43]

Ok guys...I give up...how do you use the side round?

I've been playing with it this afternoon and I can't figure it out....

I'm also getting a bit worried....about this slope an' all....

...and then there's the storage alone....

Ok...they're not all going in the chest...and most will be hollows and rounds...but how the hell did he get them all in that box!? #-o

Jim

 

[Vann]

I'm also getting a bit worried....about this slope an' all....

...and then there's the storage alone....

Just throw out some of those infills Jim, that'll free up some space...

I'll get me coat :mrgreen:

Cheers, Vann.

 

[AndyT]

Ok...they're not all going in the chest...and most will be hollows and rounds...but how the hell did he get them all in that box!? #-o

Jim

Now Jim, I'm sure you know the answer really, but just in case... the bottom of the chest had a space running the full length, 8 1/2" wide and 9 1/2" deep. A wooden divider ran along the length. This gave space for a double row of planes, stored on their ends. All the planes were the same, standard length, so this worked; you could see which was which by looking at the end profile and any size numbers were stamped on the end too. Sharp edges were protected and there was no spare space for anything to get bashed. The diagram on page 170 of the Seaton book shows this though there isn't a photo showing it filled up with planes.

For a modern comparison, this picture of Adam Cherubini's toolchest gives the idea, though he only has a single row of moulding planes:

You might need something more like this:

but I fear even that would soon get filled - so for your collection it has to be one of these:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I think the answer to the side-round question is that they are intended as a tidying-up plane when most of the work has been done by other planes. They are not intended to cut a moulding on their own. (I think the same applies to side rebates and to snipe bills - they are intended to work alongside the hollows and rounds, doing the odd jobs the H&Rs can't.)

Imagine a largish cove moulding, with an applied small rectangular upstand top and bottom of the cove's curve, surmounted by a small half-round. Most of the cove can be cut by rebate plane followed by a round, but because of the round's geometry, it can't get right into the end of the cove tight against the rectangular upstand. However, the side round can get in there, to clean up what the round can't. To do both top and bottom, you need a right hand and a left hand plane, hence the premium paid for matched pairs of such planes.

By the way, just in passing, I saw a pair of side rounds sell on the 'bay a few days ago for £255. They were in good condition, and with an unusual rebate-type escapement, but nonetheless somebody wanted those planes A LOT, particularly when you bear in mind that Philly will make you a brand new pair (with side escapement) for not much more than that. I get the feeling that good moulding planes are being appreciated more than they were, and values are on the rise.

 

[AndyT]

That's a nice clear answer (as ever!) from CC - but if you want some pictures, look no further than Matt Bickford's blog where he describes the use of moulding planes in clear, illustrated detail. This postshows the use of a side round where an astragal prevents an ordinary round from being used:

He does seem to be leading a stateside on-line revival of interest in use of moulding planes, supported by Chris Schwarz and others. I think that what his readers are hearing is that alongside the hollows and rounds, you need a pair each of side-snipes; snipes-bills; side rebates and side rounds. There are only a few eBay sellers who can spot these and even identify them properly, and they are getting top prices for what are comparatively rare planes, especially if in pairs and in good condition.

From these planes' scarcity, I guess most woodworkers managed quite well without them, and would have improvised with gouges, scrapers or sandpaper on a shaped rubber if they had to.

Don't get me wrong; I agree with what Matt is doing, and have advance-ordered a copy of his new book on making mouldings. But the supply of good old wooden planes at tiny prices can't be inexhaustible!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Thank you Andy - that's exactly what I was trying to describe!

I'd like to see a tentative revival of mouldings in furniture and joinery. We've had the better part of a century without much applied decoration, and whilst plain and simple was probably a relief after the Victorian and Edwardian excesses (at times) of embellishment, much modern design seems bland. Think of 1960s concrete and steel brutalist architecture - functional, maybe; but utterly soulless and depressing.

One advantage of a rise in prices of vintage planes is that it gives more incentive to people to buy, or make, new ones. We've had the chisel revival, the bench-plane revival and the handsaw revival - time for the moulding plane revival!

 

[AndyT]

Talking of rising prices, was it anyone on here who just bid £380 on eBay for this pair of half-rounds?

Very nice planes, by John Moseley, only three previous owners, none of whom ever seems to have used them!

So where else could you go to get something like that?

As CC said, you could go to Philly (£300 a pair); you could go to Matt Bickford($539) or Old St Tool (formerly Clark and Williams) ($559).

Suddenly that price doesn't seem so silly, and my unmatched singleton feels a bit more precious!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Strewth - somebody's won the lottery! Either that, or they're speculating on a rise in tool prices generally, or they've got a chronic case of the c......... virus.

At that sort of price, putting a working kit of planes together - even a fairly basic kit - would be a stretch (not talking about the new ones - they have to be a sensible price to make the maker's business viable).

There is another option of course. Anybody know a timber merchant stocking quartersawn beech?

 

[Thomas Hayman]

Knowing how much you all like Gabriels i thought i'd share a couple from my cabinet. Never realised what they were since i purchased them before becoming familiar with the names. Early 19th century but possibly earlier as at least one wedge has been replaced.