Alcove wardrobes help desperately needed

[Carlneedshelp]

Hi guys

I've been doing some research on building wardrobes and google led me to this forum where I've seen lots of knowledgable people providing good advice and I'm hoping I can tap into it.

Long story short, expecting a baby in a couple of months and need to get organised. I wanted to get someone in but the wife overruled me when we got the quotes in. So, I'm now stuck with the job. Anyway, I've cracked on and when not doing it I've read the forum and discovered that I am doing it differently.

What I have done is used 34mmx34mm to build a frame 2 sides and a back. I've fitted this to the wall and checked that it is straight using wedges in parts where the wall isn't straight. I've then built a base that fits snugly in the space between the frame and ensured this is level using feet when necessary and screwed this to the skirting board on all 3 sides. So far everything seems good except one side of the frame narrows from 118cm at the bottom to 117.5cm at the top but I'm not worried about that as there is enough flexibility in the frame for the carcass to correct that when I put it in. Am I correct in thinking this is okay, or am I in for a shock later?

My next step is to do the carcass and I don't want to cock it up because the wood is going to cost about £500 to have cut. The wardrobes will have 3 sections, shelving to the right, double hanging on the left and a box on top for extra storage. I plan to make each section separately and then put them on the base inside the frame and attach them to the sides. I'm going to be using Egger MFC for the carcass and as I don't have any fancy carpentry skills I am planning to use dowels and some knock down cams like most flat packs use. I'm hoping this will provide a nice neat tight fit. However, what should I use for fitting the cams, is it a normal drill bit or is there a special thing that I should be using. Also, do any of you have any special techniques for ensuring dowel holes match perfectly on each piece of wood, especially the ones that have to meet the knockdown cam perfectly?

The face I plan to do in 22mm MDF. The alcoves are 21cm deep so the frame sticks out an extra 36.8cm. The carcass will line up with the frame and I plan to have the mdf cut 36.8cm so that the sides also line up. I'm lucky that the walls either side of the alcove are straight so any gap will be minor and decorators caulk will sort that. The front face will have 4 doors but I'd like a frame around these so that there is frame at the top, bottom and in between the bottom and top doors and on each side. I had planned to get side pieces cut at 74mm so that they covered the 22mm mdf side panel, the 34mm frame and the 18mm carcass. Is this right, or should I leave a few mm of carcass exposed for the door to sit against to avoid a visible gap into the wardrobe?

How would you guys fit the face on? Would you do it piece by piece, or build it first and then fix it in place? I want to keep any evidence of the joins on the face frame at a minimum.

Sorry for all the questions but I'd really like to do a nice job on this rather than an expensive bodge.

Cheers

 

[Eric The Viking]

My heart goes out to you, for all manner of reasons, not least this one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11360819/Average-cost-of-raising-a-child-in-UK-230000.html

I'm doing wardrobes at the moment at home, and faffing about trying to get the design right. There are folks on here who do it for a living, who may chip in - far more experience than me.

Here are a few thoughts:

0. Make some more postings (one-liners will do), so you have done sufficient to be able to upload pictures. Then upload some! Drawings of what you want to achieve would help, and pics of what you've done so far.

1. Without a workshop, knock-down fittings are hard to do well, as they need precision drilling and alignment. I know this as I've had to modify B+Q cupboards in the past. You will need a router with a 15mm plunge-cutting bit and some sort of accurate depth-stop and clamping system. Frankly it's heart-in-mouth time doing the big holes (for the cams). And even then they look nasty and tend to work loose over time.

I intend to use the Kreg pocket-hole system. Other brands are available, but the Kreg is the original, and (not wanting to start an argument!), I think it's by far the best thought-out. The devil is in the detail - adjustments and measurements on the jig - the angled hole is the relatively easy bit.

Pocket holes are easy to do "on-site" as the jig clamps onto the workpiece, and, if you think it through, you can do it so that all the holes are hidden when the wardrobe is in place. Money well spent, IMHO. Make drawings until you're confident in how it's going to go together!

The Kreg comes with a driver and samples of Robertson screws. They're a Canadian invention (square headed driver), and they are totally brilliant, BUT... owing to the marketing stupidity of the manufacturer, they are hard to find here and expensive. You don't have to use them, but you _must_ use screws with a wide, flat underside to the screw head - countersunk screws are TOTALLY unsuitable (seen them supplied in kits though - go figure!).

2. You're making life hard for yourself in the design. Make the carcase sides full depth, to slide in.

3. Modern designs use "Blum" style hinges (kitchen door style - 35mm hole in the door and other side of hinge surface mounted on the side of the cabinet). It's economical and quick - needs careful setting out though - and the hinges are reasonably adjustable so the door aligns well.

Instead, you're talking (I think) about "Face Frame" construction. There's a lot of stuff out there about it - go Google and search this forum. They can look very nice (and very traditional) but it's a lot of extra work and needs great accuracy in fitting hinges etc. There's a good book by Danny Proulx on kitchens that covers both styles (try Abe Books - may be cheaper!). See also Jim Tolpin's "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets". I know, they're not wardrobes(!), but the hardest bit is making and hanging doors nicely. One advantage of a face frame though is that you don't need to edgeband the sides of the wardrobes (the face frame hides them).

4. Don't make the panels too thick as that means heavy and difficult to manhandle. The thickness for each part is determined by the design, mainly.

5. One important reason why most people do a base, fix the carcass level and square on top, then scribe filler-pieces to the (uneven or off-plumb) walls and ceiling, is that it's easier - you're not fitting something big and heavy into a tight space, or trying to precisely align similarly. The scribed sides+top of the front are easy to work with and thus easy to do well.

6. Check all measuring and alignment tools carefully. Especially spirit levels and roll-up steel tape measures (with the waggly bit at the end). Spirit levels go off, but are quickly checked and most are adjustable. Don't have one to hand that isn't adjustable: throw it away in case you're ever tempted to use it.

7. This should be (1) really: I strongly suggest you draw out some detailed plans. It will make you think through it, and spot the issues. Many folks on here use Sketchup for 3D drawing on a PC - it's brilliant, but not essential by any means.

Hope that helps. Plan lots, draw and rub-out lots, measure lots, cut once (having treble-checked measurements).

E.

PS: Get a friend to help with assembly and fitting into place - the pieces aren't heavy, but the assembly may be, and it's definitely fragile. Watch out for things like ceiling clearances... DAMHIK.

 

[petermillard]

Hi, welcome and congratulations on the baby.

+1 to what ETV says above; the approach you’ve taken - building a softwood frame then cladding it - is a bit ‘old school’ but there’s no reason why it won’t still work - though as the old joke goes I wouldn’t choose to start from here, and I do do this for a living…

Having the framework run out of true isn’t that big of a problem, and you should be able to fix it when you clad the inside - though obviously you’re making bit more work for yourself.

From your description you have a double-wardrobe with top-box above, and comprising a mix of shelves and hanging space. You’ve a fixed plinth, and the framework above is (mostly) plumb and level. The internal carcass depth is 578mm - not clear wether you’ll have a back fixed to this, or just have the wall as the back?? If it’s direct onto the alcove wall then you might have to scribe the MFC to the wall if it isn’t perfectly straight.

As an aside 18mm is pretty hefty for internal cladding, though if you want it to be MFC you won’t have a great deal of choice; in the same vein, and again, if I’ve understood correctly, you’re planning on 22mm MDF to clad the exposed side of the frame, where it abutts the chimney-breast?? If so, 22mm is way OTT for this. Could be that you just want to use up the rest of the 22mm from a spare sheet, or just want the thickness aesthetically, but something thinner would be fine here, structurally.

Back to the internal carcass for a sec; unless I have the wrong end of the stick, it’s an internal carcass that you'll slide into an existing framework - so why use cam & dowel fittings for this? By all means use dowels/biscuits etc… for alignment, but there’s not reason you can’t screw this together with carcass screws as they won’t ever be seen. You can get cam & dowel jigs, but they’re pretty expensive - Hafele do one, and it’s around £300 + VAT, I think?? Or as ETV says, pocket-hole screws are a simpler option for the odd one-off, though not really necessary here if I understand correctly.

Re the doors, sounds like you want a ‘face frame’ around them; lots of ways to skin this particular cat, but if it’s MDF that’s going to be painted, glueing and pinning it on is a pretty straightforward way of doing things. If you have space then by all means build the face-frame first and apply it in one, but there’s no harm in putting it in one section at a time. And having written that it occurs to me that you might be using e.g. butt hinges to hang the doors from the face-frame, in which case screwing it in place might be a better option! Needless to say, you fill & paint the pin/screw holes...

Couple of other things to consider; if it’s an MFC liner, and presuming you want to keep the insides clear of fixings etc… how were you planning on attaching it to the framework? Also,when buying the MDF, use Moisture Resistant (MR) MDF - it’s a much better board for little extra money.

Look forward to seeing the drawings

HTH Pete

 

[Carlneedshelp]

Hi Guys

Thanks for your prompt replies and the messages RE the baby (not sure that I dare read the attachment about the cost of them though). I'll try and post pics later. I've tried to attach a pic of what I want it to look like when finished.

RE: Cladding the inside - I'm not really intending to do this. My plan is to build each section of the carcass and then slot it into place and fix it to the frame. Thinking of having an 8mm back fixed directly to the back frame to give a nice straight back which also hides the frame. Then I'll build each section of the carcass (the box, shelving section and hanging section) and slot this into place and fix it to the frame. I haven't thought about how to fix it other than some screws with brass cup plates to make it a little nicer than just an exposed screw. Is there a way of doing it without screws on show?

MDF - I am opting for moisture resistant. I had picked 22mm as I had read in places about doors warping when people have used 18mm. The large doors are going to be about 202cm. I originally had plans to make the doors by using a router and slotting in panels but now I am wondering if it is better for a novice to just pin frames to solid MDF and paint it for the same look.

Carcass depth - I plan to make them so that they fill the space. Original plan was for 600mm wardrobe so I reduced this to 578mm to allow for 22mm face. The carcass needs to be reduced by another 34mm to account for the frame on the back wall and a further 8mm for the back sheet. So I plan to have the carcass sheets cut to a depth of 536mm so that it is a snug flush fit.

Doors - I intend to use blum hinges fixed directly to the inside of the carcass. Should the doors cover the carcass frame and if so, how much of the carcass would you leave exposed when adding the face frame? How much of a gap do you leave around the doors? I read somewhere that it is best to leave 2.5mm each side.

As mentioned in my original post I want some face frame between the bottom doors and the top. If I just sit the box carcass on top of the shelving and hanging carcass there won't be much room for this as I'll only have two lots of 18mm and some of this will be covered by the doors. I was thinking of making a frame using 34mm and sitting this on top of the bottom carcasses and then sitting the box carcasse on top. Is there a problem with this.

Finally, I take on board your points about using carcass screws to avoid squeaky bum time when drilling the knock down holes. I think I'll use some dowels and a couple of screws in each side. Would you pre-drill holes in both pieces of wood or just one and then screw in to the other?

 

[fluffflinger]

Just a heads up on the doors. I assume from your description you are looking at a Shaker style? If so do not apply a thin face to the front of a piece of MDF to create the frame and panel look. It will warp, ther are loads of threads on here that will testament to that fact. 22mm MRMDF with 9mm Panel is the way to go. With that height of doors it will cut down on the weight alot too!

It's a fairly simple job to complete with a router and infinately easier if you have a router table. Or if this is a one off screw your router to a board cut a hole for the cutter and rest it on a workmate or saw horses. Running a grooving bit along long edges without tipping isn't easy.

Here is a link to a recent thread that might help.

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/how-do-i-make-this-t86089.html

And here is an image of a simple router table set up.

You've come to the right place and with a few more posts a pic or two will help us help you.

 

[Carlneedshelp]

Hello again

I finally got my pre-cut MDF delivered last Tuesday and I have managed to build all the sections to my wardrobe and just have the last couple of coats of paint to apply before I fix them in place and start on the face frame.

There are two wardrobes, one in each alcove. One has 2 shelving sections at the bottom for large wicker baskets and on top of this a shelving section and a hanging section. That was how my wife wanted hers whilst mine is a simple double hanging section and tall shelving section. However, I am pretty tall and always seem to build things for people my height so now my wife has hijacked my wardrobe and I have the wicker basket option.

Now that I am almost ready to fit everything in place I have a new question. I've done a little research and seen that people tend to screw the carcass to the base to hold it in place and then attach any additional carcass to the other. My question is, with the wardrobe that has 4 sections, how do I attach the top 2 sections to the bottom two that will be screwed to the base? I'm using 18mm MR MDF so if they are to be screwed together I am going to need some small screws. How do you guys do it?

I'm taking a couple of pictures as I go along so I hope to be able to put them up when I am finished.

Regards

Carl

 

[tobyriches]

You have a few options for joining your carcass pieces. As you have painted your units why not just screw them together with 30mm screws (presuming your carcasses are 18mm thick) and fill and sand the countersink. You can then overpaint for an invisible fixing.

Alternatively you can get a round head threaded sleeve into which a similar round head bolt attaches which pull the cabs together nicely. Like these :

http://www.isaaclord.co.uk/cabinet-hard ... ded-sleeve

I have built wardrobe doors made from 12mm MDF with plant on 6mm for the shaker look. They did not warp, but we're a right pain to align and clamp, as everything wants to slide around. It is actually much quicker to make them properly if you have a router table set up.