Advice required: traditional saws and Japanese saws

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D_W

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(the figure for those two disstons works out to $235 US - you could do a lot worse than that for your first two saws. Nothing new in carpenter's saws is any good)
 

CoolNik

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My comment about the frame saw is just an observation,
and no doubt there maybe some who have one on the wall behind them,
but it should be evident whether they use it or not.

I wouldn't go as far to say that there is any singular channel out there,
that caters for nearly everyone.
For a hobby, hand focused workshop, a lot may depend on your strengths and
your procurement of timber, and the work you wish to do.

Change one of those things to suit yourself in particular, and you might have some
conflicting views, different methodology, or other ways of doing things, split vs saw etc...

I can give you my personal take to try and explain
My supply of semi precious iroko timber is from skips, so have to fill and laminate timbers which is more faff than most folks need to do, i.e wouldn't deem softwood
as worth this kind of work involved,
and have a big emphasis on hand planes, and the bench for efficiency and techniques sake, and also time/fatigue wise.
Some folks with machinery i.e what someone equipped with half of Cosman's machines might own,
might deem this the most work should they be getting slabs by the truckload.

I don't need to remove vast amounts of precious material, so might be a bit of a waste of space for a hobbiest to own a P/T
Likewise the same sorta thinking can be said for hand work also.

Along with a bandsaw, which I originally sought out to resaw guitar soundboards and make a bench beforehand, lol!
I've got a tablesaw since, as I always have particular rebating cuts to remove putty, which cannot be reasonably done in the time I wish to spend by hand.
If I happened to find some alternative cheap timber worthwhile of utilizing,
I might have say, put particular effort into getting a planer thicknesser, or even by hand ala Follansbee! but as I don't have a supply of trees nor planks which I've stumbled across, I have no need to delve down that route...yet!

I've certainly got enough timber to keep me going, a decades worth of collecting, so I can cross that path of needing timber and delving differing paths in time.
Other folks might not have a stash of material, so a forever plodding clear path might not be as influential on the tools.

So it may also be a case of what/who you happen to stumble across in the mix also, might slightly influence what you end up doing,
and get what you wish to know from whoever the horse who's talking is, provided you can actually verify what the end result is.

All the best
Tom
Tom, thank you for this. I was a solicitor until I got a flu injection. 3 weeks later, I lost my hearing, the use of my hands and from the knee down. It has taken years to start to function physically. When the doctors asked to describe something I had always wanted to do, I said woodwork - girls weren’t allowed to do woodwork/metalwork when I went to, secondary school! What I am trying to say is that I am stubborn and will do everything I can to try an learn enough woodwork to please myself. The specialists and physios think that working with hand saws and planes will be very good for my recovery. So here I am. My mental health suffered terribly while I was very I’ll as opppsed to just “ill”! I am quite reclusive in person, so I have to get help fromYT or these forums. unfortunately my father was someone who had never met a tool that liked him, so it’s all learning by myself. It mseems a lot of this will be easier when I know how I work. I am very greatful for your insights, as it gives me ideas for myself. Do you mind if I contact you through PM for advice, or just through here? Cheers, Robyn
 

Ttrees

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Tom, thank you for this. I was a solicitor until I got a flu injection. 3 weeks later, I lost my hearing, the use of my hands and from the knee down. It has taken years to start to function physically. When the doctors asked to describe something I had always wanted to do, I said woodwork - girls weren’t allowed to do woodwork/metalwork when I went to, secondary school! What I am trying to say is that I am stubborn and will do everything I can to try an learn enough woodwork to please myself. The specialists and physios think that working with hand saws and planes will be very good for my recovery. So here I am. My mental health suffered terribly while I was very I’ll as opppsed to just “ill”! I am quite reclusive in person, so I have to get help fromYT or these forums. unfortunately my father was someone who had never met a tool that liked him, so it’s all learning by myself. It mseems a lot of this will be easier when I know how I work. I am very greatful for your insights, as it gives me ideas for myself. Do you mind if I contact you through PM for advice, or just through here? Cheers, Robyn

Sorry to hear of this Robyn, that sounds very tough going!
I couldn't say if I'd be worth talking to, as I don't have much experience with handsawing
as I rarely cut any joinery, nor dovetails, and I don't really think I have a philosophy that makes sense.

Slightly way off subject novel for folks to skip....
Not that I don't intend to do more handsawing.... eventually, just that I've got psoriatic arthritis or some sort, along with fatigue and whatnot, so have slight OCD for anything non efficient,
A huge contradiction for someone who does things with laborious tediousness like plugging old timbers occasionally.
Not that I envision myself doing that forever, just scrimping for now.

Never made wooden things worth talking about, and anything I do, is work on the workshop to make it more hospitable. (yet I don't really have a suitable warm environment for working)
Being in a rented place, never know how long you've got.
I intended to have a setup where I could have a lot of flexibility in that sorta sense, but just about now at this stage, after decade of collecting lol

Most of that is timber, which Isn't a problem as it will disappear eventually,
and my machines have a place now, since most of the timber is slightly toxic /a sensitizer to work with, with an auto immmune thing I wouldn't want it to be all over me, so I don't use the tablesaw often,
The large 24"bandsaw, isn't that bad by comparison, even without extraction.
(briefly had a 20" lemon prior, bought originally for luthiere purposes, dustier by comparison, before even getting into hand tools,
....until I heard Steve Maskery mention dovetails and Rob Cosman!

This at the same time when my luthiere DVD Mentor John Mayes,
had gotten very ill from the sawdust, so that put an end to wanting to make dust
anymore.
After using hand planes I wanted skill rather than sanding jigs.


Is that enough contradictions or what?
Just plodding along really, and can write a list of things needs doing before any
woodworking,. I just can't make plans anymore, as I'm too much of a flake.

Welcome to discuss matters via PM conversation , but I think an open discussion might benefit others, as there's lots of folks who have various ailments and likely have something to add.

end of the OCD sickley wannabe woodworking novel of contradictions.


Just sayin I have no experience in a conventional sense of buying timber
and being efficient with hand tools in this regard.
I only have a fine crosscut panel, and two backsaws that I've sharpened and used.
No fine dovetail saws, as I need some files, and thats down the road yet before I do any of that.

I think the subject of sawing is possibly the most personal of all compared to any other tools.
A "show us your saws" thread might be quite revealing and interesting in that sense.

Tom
 

CoolNik

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Sorry to hear of this Robyn, that sounds very tough going!
I couldn't say if I'd be worth talking to, as I don't have much experience with handsawing
as I rarely cut any joinery, nor dovetails, and I don't really think I have a philosophy that makes sense.

Slightly way off subject novel for folks to skip....
Not that I don't intend to do more handsawing.... eventually, just that I've got psoriatic arthritis or some sort, along with fatigue and whatnot, so have slight OCD for anything non efficient,
A huge contradiction for someone who does things with laborious tediousness like plugging old timbers occasionally.
Not that I envision myself doing that forever, just scrimping for now.

Never made wooden things worth talking about, and anything I do, is work on the workshop to make it more hospitable. (yet I don't really have a suitable warm environment for working)
Being in a rented place, never know how long you've got.
I intended to have a setup where I could have a lot of flexibility in that sorta sense, but just about now at this stage, after decade of collecting lol

Most of that is timber, which Isn't a problem as it will disappear eventually,
and my machines have a place now, since most of the timber is slightly toxic /a sensitizer to work with, with an auto immmune thing I wouldn't want it to be all over me, so I don't use the tablesaw often,
The large 24"bandsaw, isn't that bad by comparison, even without extraction.
(briefly had a 20" lemon prior, bought originally for luthiere purposes, dustier by comparison, before even getting into hand tools,
....until I heard Steve Maskery mention dovetails and Rob Cosman!

This at the same time when my luthiere DVD Mentor John Mayes,
had gotten very ill from the sawdust, so that put an end to wanting to make dust
anymore.
After using hand planes I wanted skill rather than sanding jigs.


Is that enough contradictions or what?
Just plodding along really, and can write a list of things needs doing before any
woodworking,. I just can't make plans anymore, as I'm too much of a flake.

Welcome to discuss matters via PM conversation , but I think an open discussion might benefit others, as there's lots of folks who have various ailments and likely have something to add.

end of the OCD sickley wannabe woodworking novel of contradictions.


Just sayin I have no experience in a conventional sense of buying timber
and being efficient with hand tools in this regard.
I only have a fine crosscut panel, and two backsaws that I've sharpened and used.
No fine dovetail saws, as I need some files, and thats down the road yet before I do any of that.

I think the subject of sawing is possibly the most personal of all compared to any other tools.
A "show us your saws" thread might be quite revealing and interesting in that sense.

Tom
Wow, Tom, too much for me to respond too right now. Tomorrow is really busy, so it will be Wednesday before I get back to this! Cheers, Robyn
 

Craig22

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Tom, thank you for this. I was a solicitor until I got a flu injection. 3 weeks later, I lost my hearing, the use of my hands and from the knee down.

Good grief Robyn, how awful.

But you are the second person I have heard had bad reactions from a flu injection. The other was a good friend and walk leader, Nik - really strong and fast walker. His flu injection about 16 months ago attacked the nerve sheaths in his lower spine, and has left him wheelchair bound for the rest of his life.

Apparently these dreadful reactions are exceptionally rare (1 in a million), but that is no consolation to you or my mate Nik.

Craig
 

Auldfart2010

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As a confirmed wood butcher, I left sawing alone for many years as I couldn't make a straight cut if my life depended on it. At around 50, I tried a pull saw, OMG, what a revelation.
 

CoolNik

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As a confirmed wood butcher, I left sawing alone for many years as I couldn't make a straight cut if my life depended on it. At around 50, I tried a pull saw, OMG, what a revelation.
A “pull saw” being a Japanese saw or some thing different? Actually it’s my biggest fear that no matter how much I practic, I won’t be able to make straight cuts!! Time will tell.
 

CoolNik

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Good grief Robyn, how awful.

But you are the second person I have heard had bad reactions from a flu injection. The other was a good friend and walk leader, Nik - really strong and fast walker. His flu injection about 16 months ago attacked the nerve sheaths in his lower spine, and has left him wheelchair bound for the rest of his life.

Apparently these dreadful reactions are exceptionally rare (1 in a million), but that is no consolation to you or my mate Nik.

Craig
Hi Craig,

this happened to me `15 year ago. it is utterly shameful that 15 years later, they are still not telling the truth about these injections. I got mine in Canada (I lived there then) and my doctor gave her husband the same injection from the same bottle and he too suffered nerve damage but different to my damage. He was a doctor and was unable to continue to operate. I have been on oxygen since 3 weeks after the jab, totally deaf in one ear and partially in the other. I have walked with a walker ever since, I still have no feeling in my hands or from my knees down but have constant pain - even with no feeling! Your friend, 1 in a million eh? I was told that “I had won the lottery but just in reverse”. Someone thought that was funny…. I assume that your friend has other lower spine issues too. How is he coping mentally? Kind thoughts to him and his family. Robyn
 

Craig22

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Just a quick word about Disston. All Disstons are not created equal. The best ones are original Apple wood handles - generally rather dark coloured from use. Later ones were beech - which is OK, but the blades were not so good.

Older originals have a tapered blade - this means that the blade is tapered from the tooth line to the back, and along the back from the toe to the handle. And the teeth are "breasted", which means curved slightly from the toe to the handle.

The breasting has often been ground level over the years, with the slight curve "corrected" incorrectly.

The only modern saws that I've found incorporate both features are Pax Handsaws .

These are fine saws, still made in Sheffield UK.

Craig
 

profchris

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I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and say, "save your money until you know what you are going to make".

From CoolNik's early posts, I get the impression these are small items, at least to begin with.

I use both Western and Japanese saws. For a short rip cut (say 1 ft, 300 mm) I'd choose the Japanese ryoba every time. For a long cut (3ft, 900 mm) I'd use my 28 inch Western rip saw. In between, it would depend on the thickness of the board, the species, and how I felt on the day.

The same for cross-cutting - Japanese saw for 6 inch boards, Western panel for wide boards (say wider than 12 inches), in between it depends.

Western saws require more physical effort per stroke, and this might be an important consideration for CoolNik.

I can't imagine that the woodworking course spends a lot of time on the actual sawing process - learning to saw straight is a matter of a few tips (which should be useful for either type of saw) and then just practice! The important parts of the course will be what to do with the wood once you've sawn it.
 

Auldfart2010

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A “pull saw” being a Japanese saw or some thing different? Actually it’s my biggest fear that no matter how much I practic, I won’t be able to make straight cuts!! Time will tell.
I now have both Japanese and German made pull saws. They have the same teeth profiles, parallel not offset like my heirloom Record Ridgeways and Spear & Jacksons.
 

paulrbarnard

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A “pull saw” being a Japanese saw or some thing different? Actually it’s my biggest fear that no matter how much I practic, I won’t be able to make straight cuts!! Time will tell.
If the saw is correctly set and sharp it will cut straight. The only challenge is to get it started heading in the right direction and that challenge is the same for both western and Japanese saws.
those having difficulty sawing a straight line should take a look at their saw. I suspect people don’t have the same issue withJapanese saws because they do t generally get sharpened.
 

Jacob

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I'm not convinced about throw-away pull saws either. I did have a couple of western stye Draper hand saws some years back but throwaway with hardpoint 3 facet teeth, Japanese style, but for normal pushing, not pulling. They cut brilliantly.
Seems to me that anybody who first picks up a Jap saw is likely to find it also cutting brilliantly as it is very likely to be brand new. Especially in comparison to the old S&J found in a shed and badly sharpened which was in use before. :rolleyes:
The thin kerf is a bit of a distraction too - a S&J DT saw will be 0.5 mm thick - I don't see that a Japanese DT at 0.3mm is going to do much differently.
Replacement blades not cheap either. A normal western saw will last for life and being able to sharpen it will save a fortune and if done properly will cut just as well - and be as sharp as you want whenever you want it to be.
 

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