Advice required for Daughter who was never paid for her work

[flanajb]

My eldest Daughter took a job at a very wealthy families stable yard in Oxford, she worked 3 weeks and did 6 day weeks and worked the whole Easter weekend. She had a ding dong with the crazy owner of the house and they told her not to come back.

When she went to collect her final wages, they told her she was not being paid for the Bank Holidays she worked. Now on reflection I think this is really poor and I am thinking of what course of action I can take.

It also seems apparent that whilst my Daughter was being paid minimum wage the family have blatantly paid her in cash and she was not officially an employee. Now she could be in trouble too, but I suspect they will also be breaching law and I was contemplating writing to them and stating that unless she is paid for the additional days I will be speaking with HMRC.

In fact when she went to collect her final weeks money today, the Husband handed her £120 and went mad when she said she was owed for the additional days he went mad and said "well your not getting anything now". She was then told by the Wife that if she did not leave the premises she would go and get her shotgun.

Advice would be appreciated here.

Thanks

 

[Harbo]

Police as she was threatened with use of a gun?

Small Claims Court?

Local Press?

Twitter/Blog/?

Rod

 

[JakeS]

My eldest Daughter took a job at
...
It also seems apparent that whilst my Daughter was being paid minimum wage the family have blatantly paid her in cash and she was not officially an employee. Now she could be in trouble too, but I suspect they will also be breaching law and I was contemplating writing to them and stating that unless she is paid for the additional days I will be speaking with HMRC.

Did she have a contract or just a verbal agreement? Had they agreed in advance to pay her for working bank holidays? Was anyone else witness to this?

My understanding is pretty loose, but I was under the impression that it was the employer's responsibility to sort out things like NI and tax contributions and so on, so if your daughter was never asked for the relevant details I suspect she probably hasn't done anything wrong, presuming that she hasn't used up her tax-free income allowance already.
(It took my present employer a couple of months to get my NI number right, and nobody's ever had a go at me for it.)

She was then told by the Wife that if she did not leave the premises she would go and get her shotgun.

Also I could be wrong but I suspect that counts as assault. I'm pretty sure "credible threats" (or similar) to one's person are counted, even if no actual attempt to inflict physical harm occurred. I would kind of hope that making threats like that was a good enough reason to revoke someone's license to own a shotgun!
(I've nothing against a person's right to act in self-defence, but presuming there's no extenuating circumstances you've not mentioned - was your daughter holding a running chainsaw? - that sounds like nothing short of a malicious threat.)


How badly does she need the money? I'd be tempted to just report the shotgun threat to the police straight off and if nothing comes to it, write to any newspaper that will listen about the entire incident. But I'm fortunate enough to have the luxury of forgoing a few days' wages for the chance to be vindictive toward someone I think deserves it; if your daughter would prefer to be paid, I suspect a polite-but-firm letter reminding them of their duties as an employer, citing the exact sum owed and the exact hours work for which it is owed and noting that withholding wages is illegal may be more prudent.

 

[MARK.B.]

Aside from the fact that she is owed the money,to threaten or to imply a threat with the shotgun is against the law,you should imho go straight to the police and explain the situation and let them handle the matter, it will of course be your daughters word against thiers about both the money and the threat. The last thing people like that want is the involvement of government agencies looking into thier affairs so maybe your daughter could inform them by letter if she does not wish to face them that she will inform HMRC that she has done work for these people and would like to pay the tax owed but she is unable to do so because they insisted she take cash in payment for the work done,of course she would be willing to forget the whole thing if they pay her what is owed. Ok your daughter may not get the money owed and indeed may have to pay a little tax as well but just imagine how inconvienent it will be for these people to have the dreaded Tax man poking around (who knows what he may find) ,not to mention the damage done to their social status and business once the word gets round.

 

[Flynnwood]

My eldest Daughter took a job at a very wealthy families stable yard in Oxford, she worked 3 weeks and did 6 day weeks and worked the whole Easter weekend. She had a ding dong with the crazy owner of the house and they told her not to come back.

When she went to collect her final wages, they told her she was not being paid for the Bank Holidays she worked. Now on reflection I think this is really poor and I am thinking of what course of action I can take.

It also seems apparent that whilst my Daughter was being paid minimum wage the family have blatantly paid her in cash and she was not officially an employee. Now she could be in trouble too, but I suspect they will also be breaching law and I was contemplating writing to them and stating that unless she is paid for the additional days I will be speaking with HMRC.

In fact when she went to collect her final weeks money today, the Husband handed her £120 and went mad when she said she was owed for the additional days he went mad and said "well your not getting anything now". She was then told by the Wife that if she did not leave the premises she would go and get her shotgun.

Advice would be appreciated here.

Thanks

I have some experience with employment matters and contractual law.

Payment in cash is not an issue and neither is HMRC relative at this point.

So just to clarify, can you specify:

1. What was she eventually paid?
2. How much was the agreement per hour when she agreed to work for them?
3. How many hours did she work in total?
4. What was the "ding dong" about?

Aside from all the above (money) ........ If she was threatened with a gun, report it to the police as soon as possible. As in NOW!

 

[Lons]

Payment in cash is not an issue and neither is HMRC relative at this point.

So just to clarify, can you specify:

1. What was she eventually paid?
2. How much was the agreement per hour when she agreed to work for them?
3. How many hours did she work in total?
4. What was the "ding dong" about?

Aside from all the above (money) ........ If she was threatened with a gun, report it to the police as soon as possible. As in NOW!

+1

Is the stables a business or just a family facility?
What age is your daughter?
if a business then surely any payment including cash for labour, whether casual or not would need to go through the books and contributions paid if necessary.
If a family hobby then they could say she was not employed but just helping out the payment was not "wages".

If it were my daughter, I would be inclined to report the threats to the police and probably write off the money.

Bob

 

[Gary Morris]

The guy hasn't said he will not pay, if your quotes accurate, he said he's not paying any more now.
It might be worth gathering facts such as the balance owed, then speak to him and ask for the balance, if the answer is no, then perhaps you could suggest that you may be contacting the police re the shotgun incident, hmrc about the non payment of tax and ni, and that you intend to contact any and all of his customers and invite them to read your facebook thread that you intend to open.
BUT only if you think the shotgun threat was false, if not then go to the cop shop and report it. At the end of the day you and your family's lives are worth a darn sight more than a few quid.

 

[flanajb]

Having spoke to my Daughter again last night, she confirmed the following.

After the Husband snatched the £150 out of her hand in the house after she said she was actually owed £230 he then told her to get out of his house and that she would not be getting anything from them. My Daughter then went to ask her Boyfriend who was sitting outside in the car, that is when the Wife said unless you get off my land I will get my shotgun and she called the police.

The Police apparently found it rather amusing and gave my Daughter an incident number. I need to find out more about this as they should have at least given the Women a stern telling off.

She also mentioned that there was no contract of employment, but she does say she has lots of text messages from the Woman telling her what she wants done during the 3 weeks she was employed as well as lots of photos.

The ding dong was about the way the Woman spoke to my Daughter. She says that the Woman was nasty and very rude. For my Daughter to say that, then she must have had good cause to have had a disagreement with her.

I need to clarification as to whether they have broken any laws as they employ a number of other staff and I wonder whether any of it is above board. If I can get either HMRC involved for non payment of employees NI then I will ring them and tell them that they should pay the monies owed or else I will involve them

 

[JakeS]

After the Husband snatched the £150 out of her hand in the house after she said she was actually owed £230 he then told her to get out of his house and that she would not be getting anything from them.

So in fact, she didn't get paid for her last week of work at all, let alone the bank holidays?

I need to clarification as to whether they have broken any laws as they employ a number of other staff and I wonder whether any of it is above board. If I can get either HMRC involved for non payment of employees NI then I will ring them and tell them that they should pay the monies owed or else I will involve them

Did they give your daughter a P45? I believe it's a requirement to inform employees as to how much income they've had and how much tax/NI has been paid as part of that employment, which is generally done via the P45 form. If she didn't get one, I'd suspect that probably there wasn't any tax/NI paid*.

I wonder if the employers would come back to that by saying that they don't employ anyone, they merely retain self-employed tradespeople - or something along those lines - and therefore it's up to your daughter to do her own taxes in the same manner as any other self-employed person. As to whether that holds water probably depends on a lot of factors like whether she had regular hours, how the employment was offered to her in the first place etc., etc.; I seem to recall hearing about legislation introduced a while back to firmly classify people as full-time employees under certain circumstances because employers were deliberately misclassifying employees to get around giving them certain rights/benefits... but I'm far from an expert.



* If she's getting paid literally £150 a week, then that's just on the cusp of having to make NI contributions; the current threshold is £149 a week. And someone getting paid only £149 a week isn't using up their whole tax-free allowance over the course of a year, and therefore doesn't have to pay any income tax either. So it could be that they've deliberately chosen to pay their workers this little specifically to avoid having to bother with NI or tax. That said, if she's over 18 and working more than 4 hours a day for that six-days-a-week £150 pay, then they're failing to pay her minimum wage!

 

[Dangermouse]

Sad to say I don't think your daughter has got a leg to stand on legally.
1/ she never had any written contract,
2/ no witnesses to anything that would support her side of things,
3/ The police would never act unless a gun was pointed at your daughter and then would need witnesses on your daughters side.
I think these people have done this before, it all seems to have been done a bit too easily on the couples side. If you could get other people to say they were treated the same, you might have a case.
But its a lesson to people, never go into working for anyone without a written contract and if working for cash then get the money up front or at least get paid by the day.

 

[bugbear]

If I can get either HMRC involved for non payment of employees NI then I will ring them and tell them that they should pay the monies owed or else I will involve them

I don't think blackmail is a good idea.

BugBear

 

[Hardwood66]

Get the long arm of the law involved as she said she would get the gun then take them to small claims cort

 

[riclepp]

No Contract = no case

There is nothing in written format that could be used in a civil case. Also the police did'nt seemed that bothered about the shot gun issue. However, if there is proof that she worked there (time sheets etc) and she got paid and I believe that they have a torte in binding (thaink thats what it is called) i.e. no contract but they pay you for doing work for them.



I suppose you could (dare I say) look at H&S, firstly even if they say she was helping out they still have a duty of care, things to consider

What training did they give her
What PPE was she offered
What (if any) were the first aid facilities
What were the emergency procedures
Did they have any risk assessment, COSHH Assessments, environmental assessment/procedures etc and if so was she made aware of them.

This is just to start with, you could go on and on.

Failing all else go round the house ask to see the shotgun and shove it where the sun don't shine and sell the horses to Tesco's
and if the husband comes along , I will leave that to you imagination.

 

[Gary Morris]

I would contact ACAS, they act as go between's in industrial disputes and may be able to give you some specific info and help.

 

[Flynnwood]

Having spoke to my Daughter again last night, she confirmed the following.

After the Husband snatched the £150 out of her hand in the house after she said she was actually owed £230 he then told her to get out of his house and that she would not be getting anything from them. My Daughter then went to ask her Boyfriend who was sitting outside in the car, that is when the Wife said unless you get off my land I will get my shotgun and she called the police.

The Police apparently found it rather amusing and gave my Daughter an incident number. I need to find out more about this as they should have at least given the Women a stern telling off.

She also mentioned that there was no contract of employment, but she does say she has lots of text messages from the Woman telling her what she wants done during the 3 weeks she was employed as well as lots of photos.

The ding dong was about the way the Woman spoke to my Daughter. She says that the Woman was nasty and very rude. For my Daughter to say that, then she must have had good cause to have had a disagreement with her.

I need to clarification as to whether they have broken any laws as they employ a number of other staff and I wonder whether any of it is above board. If I can get either HMRC involved for non payment of employees NI then I will ring them and tell them that they should pay the monies owed or else I will involve them

All in my opinion of course; just send them the following by Recorded Delivery and wait for the response.



Dear Mr .....

I assert that you have made an unlawful deduction of wages by witholding my final payment and I write to give you notice of my intention to claim it.

I hope that it will not be withheld as it is a payment which I have earned.

I worked [insert dates & hours in here] and am due to be paid £xxx

I have taken advice in relation to pursuing my claim through the small claims court if the payment is witheld.

I hope that this can be avoided; please respond within fourteen days.

Yours faithfully,

[Daughters name]

 

[Baldhead]

Having spoke to my Daughter again last night, she confirmed the following.

After the Husband snatched the £150 out of her hand in the house after she said she was actually owed £230 he then told her to get out of his house and that she would not be getting anything from them. My Daughter then went to ask her Boyfriend who was sitting outside in the car, that is when the Wife said unless you get off my land I will get my shotgun and she called the police.

The Police apparently found it rather amusing and gave my Daughter an incident number. I need to find out more about this as they should have at least given the Women a stern telling off.

She also mentioned that there was no contract of employment, but she does say she has lots of text messages from the Woman telling her what she wants done during the 3 weeks she was employed as well as lots of photos.

The ding dong was about the way the Woman spoke to my Daughter. She says that the Woman was nasty and very rude. For my Daughter to say that, then she must have had good cause to have had a disagreement with her.

I need to clarification as to whether they have broken any laws as they employ a number of other staff and I wonder whether any of it is above board. If I can get either HMRC involved for non payment of employees NI then I will ring them and tell them that they should pay the monies owed or else I will involve them

All in my opinion of course; just send them the following by Recorded Delivery and wait for the response.



Dear Mr .....

I assert that you have made an unlawful deduction of wages by witholding my final payment and I write to give you notice of my intention to claim it.

I hope that it will not be withheld as it is a payment which I have earned.

I worked [insert dates & hours in here] and am due to be paid £xxx

I have taken advice in relation to pursuing my claim through the small claims court if the payment is witheld.

I hope that this can be avoided; please respond within fourteen days.

Yours faithfully,

[Daughters name]

If you say you are going to do something you must follow it through to completion, you can find all the information you need from the link below.

You do not need a solicitor, you can do it yourself, I know this from experience, it is a very easy process.

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

If you need any help, click on the link below, there are a lot of people on this site who will give you all the advice you need.
http://swarb.co.uk/phpbb/index.php?sid= ... c77cc6d466

Hope this helps and good luck.

BH