Acceptable condition of second hand chisels?

[frdrk]

Hi all,

I just bought a set of Stanley 5001 chisels online from secondhandtools. The product image was small and hard to judge the condition by but the description read: "Although they have had very little use some may need to be sharpened" so I went ahead and got them.

When they arrived all but one were chipped and a few ground out of square. They were of quite varying length so I reckon they must have been used and ground back and sharpened many times (not that that is any problem in itself though). I just wasn't expecting to have to do more than the mentioned sharpening - not totally grind every one down and start over on the cutting edge.

Is this an acceptable condition given the description they were sold under and am I just being an idiot for expecting otherwise? I don't want to be the person who complains just because everything isn't perfect. I buy most of my tools second hand and enjoy taking an evening or two bringing them back to working order. But I'm not really equipped for more hardcore grinding which seems to be required in this case. I really do want these chisels though and if this condition is to be expected for the price (£44) I'll keep them and try to find someone who can fix them for me.

Best
Fred

 

[PAC1]

They are worth keeping. I have a set I got when I started my apprenticeship 36 years ago. They are miles better than the blue ones that were also available and for general day to day work still provide excellent service. You might find someone who can re grind them for you otherwise you will need to buy a grinder. (I will not state a preference as that is asking for trouble).
Look out for an 1 1/2" chisel on eBay it is the one I use the most.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

They don't look like they've been much used, but mildly abused ! Are you sure they were ever all the same length - some are graduated in other dimensions to ballance the width.

A grind will be needed, which I would not think unreasonable / out of the ordinary for second hand. Heck, it is often necessary with new ones; my Crown mortice chisels had bevel angles all over the place. I only returned one that was cracked and one which looked like someone had gone a bit mad with the linisher (They were replaced without hesitation with "good 'uns" ).

 

[bugbear]

For a bargain set bought at a car boot for £15 quid, they'd be fine.

At 44 quid and a statement of "little used", they're ... not. Thanks for the heads up on the vendor.

BugBear

 

[Inoffthered]

For a bargain set bought at a car boot for £15 quid, they'd be fine.

At 44 quid and a statement of "little used", they're ... not. Thanks for the heads up on the vendor.

BugBear

I tend to agree with this. The description was grossly misleading. The vendor must have known that the chisels were out of square and had nicks in the blade but chose not to highlight the facts and claimed, wrongly, that some "may" need sharpening. Sharpening is one thing, returning to square and removing nicks is something else.

I bet you a £ to a peanut that if someone offered Secondhandtools a set of lightly used chisels but gave them a set out of square and with chunks out of the edge they would renegotiate the price.

I suggest calling the vendor and asking them, politely, whether they stand by their description and give them the opportunity of rectifying their mistake. They may do the honourable thing and offer a rebate or a contribution towards the cost of putting the chisels into the state that they described. You could also draw the vendors attention to this thread and invite them to make their comments on this forum. I would be interested in secondhandtools perspective on this but if this is the way they describe their stock I would not buy anything from them unseen.

 

[dzj]

Unless you can get your money back, or some kind of compensation, there's not much you can do except to make 'lemonade'.
Get yourself a grinder. You'll need one sooner or later. Most will do the job, and they're not that expensive these days.
They're good chisels and once you get the hang of it, grinding isn't a big deal.

 

[lurcher]

i sell lots of tools on ebay and the statement is very very misleading i would ask for some kind of compensation even a free tool
would be ok . but you owe it to youself to do something .
pete

 

[frdrk]

Thanks for the comments.
I sent them an email about this with the suggestion that I could at least get some money off the purchase. In the reply I was offered to send them back for a refund with the suggestion that I only buy brand new chisels from now on. I don't feel they are open for much negotiation to be honest and by the tone in the reply I would guess that they maintain that the description is accurate.

Since I don't desperately need to put these chisels to work right now I might hang on to them and just try to forget what I payed for them. By the time I get a grinder (agreed, I do need one eventually) and fix them up I won't be sour anymore.

/Fred

 

[MIGNAL]

It's a poor response from the seller IMO. No way in this world is that description an accurate reflection of the condition of those chisels. It simply needed a note to state that the primary bevel needed regrinding due to some small edge chips. The 'out of square' then really becomes irrelevant.

 

[iNewbie]

Thanks for the comments.
I sent them an email about this with the suggestion that I could at least get some money off the purchase. In the reply I was offered to send them back for a refund with the suggestion that I only buy brand new chisels from now on.

Why, because the goods are not as described...

I don't feel they are open for much negotiation to be honest and by the tone in the reply I would guess that they maintain that the description is accurate.

Only its not. They should have gone to Specsavers...

 

[marcros]

if you want, send them to me and i will square them up and take out the chips on my proedge for you. Just cover the postage. MyHermes would be about £3.50. royal mail maybe a few pence less.

 

[rafezetter]

For a bargain set bought at a car boot for £15 quid, they'd be fine.

At 44 quid and a statement of "little used", they're ... not. Thanks for the heads up on the vendor.

BugBear

I tend to agree with this. The description was grossly misleading. The vendor must have known that the chisels were out of square and had nicks in the blade but chose not to highlight the facts and claimed, wrongly, that some "may" need sharpening. Sharpening is one thing, returning to square and removing nicks is something else.

I bet you a £ to a peanut that if someone offered Secondhandtools a set of lightly used chisels but gave them a set out of square and with chunks out of the edge they would renegotiate the price.

I suggest calling the vendor and asking them, politely, whether they stand by their description and give them the opportunity of rectifying their mistake. They may do the honourable thing and offer a rebate or a contribution towards the cost of putting the chisels into the state that they described. You could also draw the vendors attention to this thread and invite them to make their comments on this forum. I would be interested in secondhandtools perspective on this but if this is the way they describe their stock I would not buy anything from them unseen.

I agree with this too - at £44 they are not quite the bargain they seem, although the steel is good, even if it only costs you a tenner to get them reground that's £54 - a set of 6 brand new Narex chisels (a good brand) WITH A BOX (and obviously a warranty) is only £60 from amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flat-chisel...ef=sr_1_8?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1429191819&sr=1-8.

Or £45 from workshop heaven unboxed:

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Narex-Chisels---8105-Bevel-Edged-Chisels-Set-of-6.html#SID=18

First off don't call him - send a message via ebay (if that's where they were sold) as this will track your grievance and show you have attempted to settle this issue, but If he seems even mildly reticent to help with the cost I'd be inclined to just return them under "not as described". I know most non trades people think this is what a normal chisel looks like, but this does not mean they are even close to being fit for use.

I would ask for at least £15 towards the cost of getting them reground as you'll have travel costs and time to cover as well as the work, also make sure the money is in your paypal account before you go ahead, and give him a time limit to honor the refund.

If you do end up sending them back - make sure you request that he refund all postage charges, as that's the law - any item that is being returned because of misleading description, the original seller has to pay for it's return. Again don't send them until the postage cost has been paid to you ON TOP of the refund.

MAKE SURE YOU SEND IT RECORDED TRACKED!!! keep the slip they give you at the post office and you can track to see it's been signed for at the other end - then you are in the clear against any "we didn't get it back" shenangins.

Ebay's returns policy will help with this, and at the very least will arrange for paypal to remove your payment from his account and give it back to you without his "consent" and regardless of if he's not paid to have them returned - so worst case you'll have the refund AND the chisels to keep. (I had a very similar scenario trying to return a motherboard and the seller said he'd already spent the money and didn't have any more to give to me, paypal intervened and took it directly from his linked bank account so the seller ended up with no money and no motherboard either).

If the seller folded the postage into the original cost and sold under "postage free" and says I'm not paying for postage to return them tell him that isn't how UK law works and that he will have to prove with evidence that the chisels themselves were being sold at a lower price and that the higher price you paid reflects the added cost of postage, otherwise tough, he has to pay extra.

If £44 was a bid price then your argument would be he would still have had to honor the sale and added cost of postage to the winning bidder even if they sold for 99p - so again he has to cover the cost of their return.

Sharp practice sellers (how ironic) need to learn this is not how to do business and stay in business.

 

[frdrk]

rafezetter - I didn't get them off Ebay but from a store called Secondhandtools co uk (I'm not allowed to post an url I think). But your comments regarding returns and how to deal with a seller in a situation like still are still valid I should think. Thank you for that!

marcros - Thats very nice of you to offer to fix them up for me! I'd gladly take you up on it but I can't let you do it for free, it wouldn't be right.

I've been offered to send them back and get a refund (we haven't talked about postage though). But to be honest I'd rather forget about the cost now and fokus on getting the chisels back in working order. I'll put it down as a lesson learned not to buy from Second Hand Tools again.

 

[undergroundhunter]

http://www.secondhandtools.co.uk/new-woodworking chisels 4.htm 1st item on the page.

Matt

 

[frdrk]

No, second item. The one where the image now is missing for some reason.

 

[iNewbie]

It was there earlier.

 

[marcros]

rafezetter - I didn't get them off Ebay but from a store called Secondhandtools co uk (I'm not allowed to post an url I think). But your comments regarding returns and how to deal with a seller in a situation like still are still valid I should think. Thank you for that!

marcros - Thats very nice of you to offer to fix them up for me! I'd gladly take you up on it but I can't let you do it for free, it wouldn't be right.

I've been offered to send them back and get a refund (we haven't talked about postage though). But to be honest I'd rather forget about the cost now and fokus on getting the chisels back in working order. I'll put it down as a lesson learned not to buy from Second Hand Tools again.

it is up to you. i don't want to start a debate on sharpening, but have a think what system you are going to use.

sooner or later you may have to grind them or shift some metal, rather than just hone them. however you do it, you are going to incur some cost- diamond plates, a grinder, a proedge etc. some are more expensive than others. you can probably do it with some 60 grit paper on a piece of granite worktop, but it isn't much fun. As a weekend warrior, you may get away without grinding too often, but if you use them, it is going to need doing after every few honings, if you use a secondary bevel.

In the here and now, if you want them sorting, it wont take me that long to set the pro edge to the bevel angle, and wizz them across 60G, 120G, 180G and 240G. Job done. Don't feel that you are putting me out- i cant see it taking long at all- i may even get the fancy trizact belts out.

when you get them sorted, you could hone using a simple oil stone or scary sharp, with the rounded bevel. That would be the cheapest way, and would avoid you having to buy a grinder now. I dislike grinding chisels on a wheel, I always made a hash of it, which was part of the reason for getting the proedge.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

It's worth bearing in mind when buying ANY secondhand tool that they will not - except in very rare cases - be in new condition. Chisels will need sharpening, most (in my experience) will need some regrinding, and all but a very few will need the flat face attending to. Older ones may be found to have pitting, and the buyer must then make the decision whether to polish it out, grind past it, or scrap the tool. The pitting may not be obvious under a film of rust and grime, so it would not always be fair to blame the seller for not pointing it out. Most dealers would assume that anybody buying secondhand chisels would know how to sharpen them, and have access to the necessary kit. (Their other option is to sell them 'sharp and ready for work' at a higher cost - only for someone to nit-pick about exact degree of sharpness or bevel angle.)

In this instance, I think the seller has been honest in stating that the chisels will need sharpening - as explained above, I would have taken this for granted anyway. They look decent tools from the photographs above, with plenty of useful length left on the blades, little rust or staining, and handles in good condition. The seller did offer a full refund if the tools were returned (which they are obliged to do by law if selling over the internet, I think), so have not behaved at all badly. I think the price was fair at just under £7-50 each, bearing in mind that they were from a dealer and not an Ebay auction or car-boot sale. Stanley 5001 chisels are well regarded, and they should give years of good service. However, Marcros is right; chisels do not stay sharp indefinitely, and sooner rather than later the nettle of sharpening will have to be grasped - chisels need honing fairly regularly if they are to perfom well.

 

[frdrk]

It's not that I don't want or know how to sharpen my tools. I do that several times a week sometimes with water stones for the most part and with wet&dry paper for more coarse grits and the occasional small nick. I do all my other chisels and plane irons on this setup. I just haven't ever needed to buy a proper grinder to remove a lot of metal (although I totally see and understand that I will need to a some point).

My issue here was only with what I perceived as a discrepancy between the description and the reality. But we all have different expectations in such matters based on knowledge and passed experience. I'm fairly new at this and wanted to have the opinions of more experienced woodworkers.

Marcros, should I pm you for details?

 

[blackrodd]

I've just Googled Stanley 5001 chisels and at around £7 each it appears that you haven't paid too much at all.
They are highly rated by many, including Paul Sellers, who described them as "the best there is".
And that's certainly good enough for me!
An hour on the grinder and some honing, and I expect you will be very pleased.
Regards Rodders