600mm framesaw - Japanese blade

[KevM]

I thought I'd post a quick note on my 600m Ulmia framesaw; I acquired one back in the dim and distant fitted with the 'farmers' blade, a coarse cross cutting blade for logs.

Out of curiosity I recently bought a 600mm Japanese blade from http://www.fine-tools.com/gestell.htm , I've always been intrigued by the Japanese pullsaws but somewhat put off by their wobbliness and was interested to see how they behave when under tension in a framesaw. I was more than somewhat perplexed when the new 600mm blade didn't fit my 600mm frame no matter how hard I squeezed the frame; so that's when I decided to do my research! The distance between holes on the western style blades is 577mm, the distance on the Japanese blade is 570mm... [Edit: this is clearly stated on the fine-tools site, I was just too eager to buy/lazy to read]

Fine-tools sell parts for making your own framesaw in either Western or Japanese configurations for a few quid, but I wasn't 100% sure they were compatible with my Ulmia and didn't fancy having to change handles if/when I want to change blades - also I'm quite cheap and impatient. So, to cut a long story short, there's enough meat on the blade mounts on my western saw to drill a new 4mm hole and tap it to the 5mm thread for the fixing screw; 5 minutes later (well 15 minutes if you include the search for the dropped wing-nut from the tensioning wire...) and I've got a new favourite saw that will take either flavour of blade.

It's quite unusual in use when compared to a traditional panel saw but I like it, and as might be expected from a Japanese blade it is deadly sharp!

 

[MIGNAL]

I was tempted by one of these a few years ago. The price of the Japanese blade put me off. In the end I've made a longer cross piece for my turning saw and employed the use of a 1/2" 9 TPI thin kerf bandsaw blade. Blade is 16" long as opposed to yours being near 24". That makes mine more of a tenon/small resaw but not that suitable for ripping deeper timbers. 1" stuff (and under) it cuts well.

 

[KevM]

The Japanese blade was expensive, €27.50 before shipping, but actually inch for inch I'm not sure it's so much more expensive than other Japanese saws; I rationalised the purchase because I was already buying some other odds & sods (and because I'm worth it!).
Unfortunately/fortunately I've not broken any finer tpi bandsaw blades, otherwise I'd be tempted to try a length out as a turning saw, maybe I should give Tuffsaws a call and see if he'll make me some 600mm blades cut and drilled to length. I notice that Tuffsaws quote their 5/8 blades as being .35mm thick compared to the 0.6mm that fine-tools list for their turning saw blade. I'm guessing some of the extra blade thickness is to account for the reversing stroke of the frame saw. I'm sure there must be a host of differences in tooth geometry for the high blade speed of bandsaws versus the slow speed of a frame saw; I'm equally sure that most of it wouldn't be noticeable to me in daily use, except that maybe I'd be more likely to damage the thinner bandsaw blade.

 

[MIGNAL]

Old carbon steel bandsaw blades are quite easy to process into suitable turn saw blades or even frame resaw blades. I cut to length by filing a shallow groove and fatiguing the metal until it breaks - doesn't take long. The very ends of the blades can be heated with a propane torch and annealed to allow easier drilling. Tooth geometry can be easily changed with a saw file. Just stay away from the blades that have things like hook, vari teeth and specially hardened stuff. I have a few short lengths that aren't far off your typical hand saw geometry and it files OK. I can't be sure but I think it was a Tuffsaw blade. You can get quite a few blades from your average small bandsaw blade.

 

[MIGNAL]

Just thought I would ask: how do you find that type of saw for ripping timber? I've used my own smaller frame saw for small stuff but it does seem a little unbalanced, with the blade being at one end rather than central as in this type:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBNt3PSxcTE


That is a very deep blade but it's fair sized timber to be cutting by hand. I'm tempted to try this style but with the dedicated Japanese rip blade. Should fly through 1" material.

 

[J_SAMa]

I thought I'd post a quick note on my 600m Ulmia framesaw; I acquired one back in the dim and distant fitted with the 'farmers' blade, a coarse cross cutting blade for logs.

Out of curiosity I recently bought a 600mm Japanese blade from http://www.fine-tools.com/gestell.htm , I've always been intrigued by the Japanese pullsaws but somewhat put off by their wobbliness and was interested to see how they behave when under tension in a framesaw. I was more than somewhat perplexed when the new 600mm blade didn't fit my 600mm frame no matter how hard I squeezed the frame; so that's when I decided to do my research! The distance between holes on the western style blades is 577mm, the distance on the Japanese blade is 570mm... [Edit: this is clearly stated on the fine-tools site, I was just too eager to buy/lazy to read]

Fine-tools sell parts for making your own framesaw in either Western or Japanese configurations for a few quid, but I wasn't 100% sure they were compatible with my Ulmia and didn't fancy having to change handles if/when I want to change blades - also I'm quite cheap and impatient. So, to cut a long story short, there's enough meat on the blade mounts on my western saw to drill a new 4mm hole and tap it to the 5mm thread for the fixing screw; 5 minutes later (well 15 minutes if you include the search for the dropped wing-nut from the tensioning wire...) and I've got a new favourite saw that will take either flavour of blade.

It's quite unusual in use when compared to a traditional panel saw but I like it, and as might be expected from a Japanese blade it is deadly sharp!

Can you tell us more about the amount of set? Most of these unresharpenable, hardpoint blades seem to be over set. Is that the case with this one?

 

[MIGNAL]

Frame saw and replacement blades are here:

http://www.fine-tools.com/gestell.htm

Those nice people also state the kerf width, which is 1 mm for the Japanese blade. That's quite thin for something that's designed to rip timber.
I recently bought a Stanley Jet cut toolbox saw (small) for rough site work and that kerf seems to be more like 1.5 mm's. Quite wide for such a small saw. I guess that's one of the advantages of the frame saw, the blade is always in tension so a thinner gauge saw plate can be employed.

 

[KevM]

@MIGNAL: I've found it fine for ripping, I use a technique from Tage Frid, which takes a bit of practice, I've always tried to establish fairly strong kerfs on each corner of the board to give the blade something to follow if I'm attempting to resaw. I've not tried the Japanese blade in anything more than 3/4" red cedar and it cut through that like the proverbial hot knife through butter.

@J_SAMa - this blade is sold as a non-sharpenable, because of the impulse hardening process, I suspect you could touch it up with a diamond file, but it would doubtless need a man with a steady eye, a hollow tooth and a wooden leg. In terms of whether it's over set, I'd say it's just about right, the saw plate is listed as 0.6mm which my callipers agree with, the resulting kerf is ~1mm.

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Japanese Replacement Blade 600 mm
Pitch 2 mm
Blade thickness 0.6 mm
Kerf approx. 1.0 mm
Blade width 33 mm
Total length 600 mm
Distance hole center to hole center 570 mm
Teeth row length 545 mm

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