3rd party chipbreakers

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rafezetter

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Has anyone had experience of these? It sounds like a good way to improve my old record 5 and 7 as they have the "normal" hook(?) style chipbreakers.

Or are there other recommended aftermarket breakers?
 
Uhm... Is there supposed to be a link or pic?
I'd say you take a look at Quangsheng/Juuma's chipbreaker. Cheap but effective.
The edge on mine was only slightly out of flat, 30 seconds on a stone and it was good to go.
Actually... I've fettled all my original Record chipbreakers since. They all work as well, just took me some time and elbow grease to fettle (hammer)
 
This has been discussed quite recently. Thicker, after-market (3rd party) cap-irons are the easiest and most economical way of upgrading your plane, as long as your cutting iron is reasonable steel and in reasonable condition.

Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen, Hock and IBC make one piece thicker cap-irons. Clifton make a two-piece based on the Record Stay-Set cap-iron. I prefer the two-piece, but some people hate them with a passion (it's all to do with the lower piece - the "deflector" - falling onto the floor if you don't position your finger on it when removing and installing the irons). HTH.

Cheers, Vann.
 
I have both a clifton blade and cap iron. Never really got on with the cap iron. Blade is good, in fact it is now in a convex bottom plane i built for the box comp last year.
Then in my restored stanley 4 1/2 i use a QS blade and cap iron/ chipbreaker. Much prefer both to the clifton. :)
 
I recently posted a comparison of chip breakers on my website. The Lee Valley and the Lie-Nielsen look siimilar but have significant differences.

One of the small details that is generally overlookedis the screw used with the chip breakers. The LV is the outright winner here. It makes a significance difference in setting up a smoother.

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... eaker.html

Regards drom Perth

Derek
 
All my hand planes now have thicker chipbreakers. Old photo displayed, better No.6 and 4 were at school at time of photo. Apart from the Rob Cosman combo, all the other chipbreakers are Quangsheng from Matthew at WorkshopHeaven.
I have upgraded plane blades also.
Either RC http://www.robcosman.com/chipbreaker.html
Quangsheng. http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Qua ... Irons.html
Or Samurai. http://www.axminster.co.uk/japanese-lam ... ane-blades
Some planes needed a longer Yolk lever, the thicker combos.
After some fettling, all blades and planes are improved and work so much better.
If I had no planes, I would buy the Quangsheng planes.

 
rafezetter":3168mo7y said:
Has anyone had experience of these? It sounds like a good way to improve my old record 5 and 7 as they have the "normal" hook(?) style chipbreakers.

Or are there other recommended aftermarket breakers?

ECE have been manufacturing chipbreakers that to my eye appear to meet most of Derek's criteria and have been doing so for longer than virtually any of the manufacturers he mentions by name have even been in existence.

They may not be susceptible to a retrofit, but it might just be cause to own one of their planes outright. They seem to have smoothing covered with a thick iron and thick breaker, 50* bedding, adjustable mouth, no-backlash adjustment, lignum vitae sole. If anything is missing I surely can't think of it.
 
Hardly the end of the world is it, a chipbreaker with an unknurled screw. :roll:
In fact I've just removed the breaker and blade from my old English woodie (breakers don't look much different than the LN & the LV). Took me all of 5 seconds to reposition and tighten the (unknurled) screw! Something is going wrong somewhere Derek if you have to epoxy the 2 piece Clifton together. I mean seriously, I can't ever remember dropping mine once. I've only been using one for around 30 years! OK sometimes it may free itself when the lever cap is removed but I never had it fly out of the Plane, ever. The beauty of the Clifton is that you only have to position it once. Thereafter it is set. The only time you would ever need to adjust it is if you wanted a MUCH thicker shaving or with iron wear. Not very often.
2 piece. 1 piece -knurled, unknurled - I ain't the slightest bit bothered. They all work.
 
CStanford":2podpxs0 said:
rafezetter":2podpxs0 said:
Has anyone had experience of these? It sounds like a good way to improve my old record 5 and 7 as they have the "normal" hook(?) style chipbreakers.

Or are there other recommended aftermarket breakers?

ECE have been manufacturing chipbreakers that to my eye appear to meet most of Derek's criteria and have been doing so for longer than virtually any of the manufacturers he mentions by name have even been in existence.

They may not be susceptible to a retrofit, but it might just be cause to own one of their planes outright. They seem to have smoothing covered with a thick iron and thick breaker, 50* bedding, adjustable mouth, no-backlash adjustment, lignum vitae sole. If anything is missing I surely can't think of it.

If you are referring to the Primus? Had one, sold it. Hated the spring adjuster and the method of releasing the blade. I have an ECE that uses the simple wedge and much prefer it. One sharp tap on the back and blade/chipbreaker are out.
 
I'd say that whether it's worth replacing cap-irons or cutting irons depends on what duty you expect of the planes.

For a No 5 set up as a proper jack plane (cambered iron, wide mouth, used to remove bulk waste without much regard to finish) then replacing the cap-iron probably won't improve performance much. If you want it set up as a super-smoother (straight iron with the corners knocked off, tight mouth, fine cut) then the extra stiffness imparted by a better cap-iron would almost certainly reduce the susceptibility to chatter and generally improve finish.

For the No 7, presumably you want this set up for trying duties, and extra stiffness (either by using a thicker iron, a stiffer cap-iron or both) will definitely help both finish and accuracy.
 
Cheshirechappie":1ha6huso said:
I'd say that whether it's worth replacing cap-irons or cutting irons depends on what duty you expect of the planes.

For a No 5 set up as a proper jack plane (cambered iron, wide mouth, used to remove bulk waste without much regard to finish) then replacing the cap-iron probably won't improve performance much. If you want it set up as a super-smoother (straight iron with the corners knocked off, tight mouth, fine cut) then the extra stiffness imparted by a better cap-iron would almost certainly reduce the susceptibility to chatter and generally improve finish.

For the No 7, presumably you want this set up for trying duties, and extra stiffness (either by using a thicker iron, a stiffer cap-iron or both) will definitely help both finish and accuracy.

Well I had a bit of a rude reality check in planing some oak doors a couple of days ago - admittedly it was the first time I've ever touched oak, but I had an (obviously flawed) view that my vintage record #4 that had worked great with pine, would be ok with the Oak; but it struggled and chewed up a section of wild grain (or a knot if they have such things?) no matter how much I tried to sharpen the blade. Part of it was probably that I only have a diamond stone up to 600, but I was also got chatter a couple of times that left horrible marks - unseen this time on the bottom thankfully, but it made me see how badly the problem of chatter can be. As I can't justify buying a QS plane for the amount of planing I currently do I was hoping this relatively cheap modification would help.

As I have a pre WW II record #7 as well (trying to learn how to dimension stock), I was hoping I'd be able to use the same chipbreaker in both planes.

You mention a #5 as a super smoother? Is that better than using a #4?

Which do you think would benefit more - buying a better chipbreaker, or putting that towards better sharpening?
 
600G is a bit low to get very sharp. Don't do anything until you can get that blade truly sharp. Get some very fine Wet/Dry and see how it works after using that. You need really sharp, anything else is just icing.
 
Seasoned oak is a fair old test for a Bailey-type plane with a standard thin iron!

I think Mignal is right - sharpness cures many (not all!) problems. Investing in a 1200 grit diamond stone (as your other sharpening equipment is diamond stones it makes sense to stay consistent, though there's no real harm in mixing sharpening media if you choose or if circumstances dictate) may prove a very sound long-term investment; it'll give edges more suited to fine finishing work with a smoothing plane, with the added benefit of more refined edges on such things as chisels used for paring and joint-fitting. (Arguably, plane irons for rough bulk stock removal, and chisels for heavy chopping, will be OK off the 600 grit stone - in those applications, the first few strokes or chops will take off the very fine edge from a polishing stone.) The finer stone will help with finishing softer woods, too - where you now have a smooth surface, you'll have a lustrous one from a truly sharp iron!

So for final smoothing duties, sharpen on the 600 grit and finish on a polishing stone, then set the cap-iron as close to the edge as you can get it - literally a hair's breadth, 0.2mm or so - and set the plane's mouth very tight by moving the frog forward. Then set the plane for a very fine shaving, and see how you go. That may be enough to cure the chatter problems, and avoid most tearout problems too. Skewing the plane so that the blade attacks the work at 45 degrees can help a bit, too; as can turning the plane end-for-end and using it on the pull to deal with reverse grain patches. Any remaining minor tearout could be dealt with by either a scraper or by sanding.

If it isn't good enough, then it may be worthwhile to stiffen up the setup with either a better cap-iron, or a thicker iron, or both. If THAT'S not enough, try a back-bevel on the iron. (If that doesn't work - either scrap the wood and get some nicer stuff, or take up stamp collecting instead!)

Strangely, perhaps - given that they are set to take the thinnest shavings - it's usually smoothing planes that need the most nursing to give fine results, maybe because flaws in the finish that don't matter much from a try plane, and don't matter at all from a jack plane, are critical. If you can get a smoother set up to give chatter and tearout free results in wild-grained hardwoods, you've pretty much cracked one of the trickiest skills of hand planing.

A try plane would be set up similarly to a smoother, but with a slightly wider mouth and cap-iron set slightly further back (say 0.4 to 0.5mm), reflecting the thicker shaving expected of a stock dimensioning plane, and giving a reasonable (but not necessarily flawless) finish. My Record 07 did perform much better once I'd fitted it with a Clifton iron and stay-set cap-iron, so those may well be worthwhile longer term additions for your try plane. Try with the existing iron and cap-iron first, though.

The jack plane, being for bulk stock removal (working across grain whenever possible) is an entirely different setup - cambered blade, wide mouth, cap-iron set back 1.5mm or so, deep cuts. In this instance, finish is pretty well immaterial, so the existing iron should perform adequately.

The fine edge honed on a decent plane iron lasts about 20 to 30 minutes on pine, and maybe 10 to 15 minutes on something like oak. It's worth getting used to a quick-and-easy sharpening regime that can refresh an edge in a minute or two, so that you're not tempted to carry on working with a steadily dulling iron.

The reference to 'super-smoother' is reflecting some people's practice of dimensioning their stock by machine, and only using handplanes to refine the surface, adjust edge joints to fit, and take out any machine marks. Some people use a larger plane set up like a smoother to do that ('super-smoother' thus reflecting plane size rather than quality of finish produced), some prefer the smaller size, lightness and nimbleness of the smaller planes for finishing, and a try plane for edge-jointing. It's entirely down to personal preferences and individual circumstances.
 
My pre 1st world war 4 1/2 has no probs with dry oak or even purple heart. However i have flattened the sole. Plus i use the QS blade/ chip breaker and is sharpened/ honed with scary sharp system.
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/3M- ... -Pack.html
Mine is the thinner film versions and i go all the way through the grits to the white one. Not sure what grit that equates to now. Mathew used to have a comparison to the equivalent water stone grit in the descriptions, but i can't seem to see it now?
 
I found myself in receipt of a Record Stay-Set Cap Iron and I also purchased a Lie-Nielsen improved cap iron from Axminster some time ago to see if these things made any difference over the standard Bailey type.
The Lie-Nielsen in my experience made no difference at all and I have just sold it. Any issues one may have with setting the standard type and any possible stretching when fastening it to the blade are something easily anticipated. Almost every woodworker I have worked with used or uses Stanley brand planes with standard blades and cap irons with no issue, even when used on oak. In my opinion the only issue I have with standard or "improved" types is the bending forces applied to the blade within the Bailey context. Enter the Stay-Set or the Clifton.
First off the two piece type did take getting used to, for me it was around 10mins. Being bought up on one piece it can and did catch me out for the first few times changing the blade. I would suggest anyone who buys a two piece lay off the epoxy and give it a chance. The best feature for me personally is that it does not apply bending forces allowing better contact with the frog face. My Record #4 felt tighter and "improved" when using the two piece over the Lie-Nielsen or the Standard type.
Personally find sharpening, reading the timber, how you approach the gain with a plane and how you set the cap iron will have more influence than anything else.
So back to the original question, in my experience if you want to spend some money with a view to improve buy a two piece cap iron.
 
2 piece cap iron. Flip the lever cap and remove. Hold the edge of the blade/upper part of chipbreaker between the thumb on one edge and middle/ring/little finger on the other edge. Place index finger on lower part of chipbreaker.
Remove blade and chipbreaker from the Plane. Flip the lower part of chipbreaker onto the bench.
Sharpen blade.
How difficult is that? You can learn that procedure in about 10 seconds (sharpen blade may take longer). Works every time. My apologies Derek but sometimes reviews can make some products sound like horror stories, when they clearly aren't.
 
Agreed Mignal, the largest obstacle for me was breaking the habit of expecting a one piece.
 
It is important to keep in mind the purpose of the chipbreaker. It is there to bend shavings. When it does so at an acute angle, the shaving does not get a chance to tear the wood. For the chipbreaker to work this way, it has to be capable of being placed very close to the edge of the blade.

In my experience, the Clifton chipbreaker design makes this more difficult as it is not a rigid, solid construction. The LV and LN chipbreakers need some attention to their leading edges ( hone them to 45 degrees), but after this they are much easier to set up. What is the purpose of a two-part chipbreaker if you have to reset the rear section after honing anyway. Clearly it was not designed for fine settings, only coarse settings!

Then there is the chipbreaker screw. Think of this as the adjuster for the chipbreaker. The worst of the bunch is the LN (poor grip) but recently I was shown a Clifton and it is the same. Obviously the screw in mine is a Stanley. The LV screw is excellent. It facilitates easier setting of the chipbreaker at the edge of the blade.

Mignon, if I made the Clifton sound bad that is because it is so. It is a chipbreaker for coarse work, not smoothing difficult wood.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
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