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By Jacob
#1288620
Osvaldd wrote:I would really like to learn how to sharpen without the guide, but whenever I do that I always tend to raise the angle with every sharpening before it becomes too steep
Sorry to state the obvious but try lowering the angle.
Put your chisel or plane iron on the stone at as near 30º as you can guess, then push it forwards but slightly lower it as you go. This results in a slightly rounded bevel (just like everybody used to do it) but with the edge not exceeding 30º.
It is extremely simple and very easy to do.
By YoelD
#1288678
Osvaldd wrote:I would really like to learn how to sharpen without the guide, but whenever I do that I always tend to raise the angle with every sharpening before it becomes too steep

Exactly how are you going about sharpening? Hand sharpening and keeping a pretty consistent secondary bevel isn't quite as difficult as it seems.
It might be down to the technique you use.
By D_W
#1288710
Osvaldd wrote:I would really like to learn how to sharpen without the guide, but whenever I do that I always tend to raise the angle with every sharpening before it becomes too steep


Just regrind often until you get a grasp on not stepping up the angle.
User avatar
By Ttrees
#1288727
Having a bench grinder for starters, it will make any chance for errors drastically reduce.
No excuses for not having one!.. they're dirt cheap, have an induction motor that will last forever.

Depending on how much camber you use, it may play a part in this, but for me what worked starting with my lightly cambered irons,
was honing with the blade sideways, facing the small bevel, honing to and away from me.
I could register at each end (corner) of the iron, instead of focusing on registering on the tippy hollow ground bevel.

The same principle as chopping mortises plum with a small square and a chisel,
In that you can see the bevel laying flat on the stone.


You cant really change the angle if your honing sideways, with not much camber.
By that, I mean creating a larger camber without wanting to....(nothing to do with your honing angle)

This gave me a new way of approaching sharpening, because I'm using a different method for reference now and it's a lot easier.
Imagine, like you were expecting someone to shake out your credit card with a vice grips either side of your hand,
Referencing on each end gives a different grasp to focus on and will aid muscle memory.


Two things about this method though.... if you have an oilstone, you will hollow it out, so it might be a good candidate for the diamond plates.
And it takes a larger amount of strokes to hone an edge.

I don't skew or hone sideways now, just normally like everyone else, but have retained the important part, the knowledge of where to focus and hold the iron and can do any pattern of honing with any camber without changing the bevel angle.
even honing on a high spot is no problem.
Looking at a lot of folks now, I can see that same stance.

Tom
User avatar
By Ttrees
#1288767
Osvaldd wrote:Just need more practice and patience I guess. and resist the temptation to lift the chisel a degree or two to get quicker results...



Less patience in my view, and more of practicing the techniques of someone who gets it done efficiently.
As said, I can now see what I was missing by watching skilled folks from a different perspective.
Not saying these folks have identical techniques atall, but I see the way their honing style has a similar grasp by the way they're directing the force, not on to the bevel, but on the length of the iron, and using their shoulders.
(in my view, they might tell you otherwise)

David W, Bill Carter, and Rob Cosman, Yes, on waterstones, and honing in different circular patterns! What I see he has a similar grasping reference method, regardless of convincing you to buy thicker blades for more hollow grind reference area, I still see that side to side reference now.
More important than any hollow ground bevel reference, in my view.

Tom
User avatar
By ED65
#1288829
Osvaldd, you just need more practice. Virtually everyone freehand sharpening has been guilty of doing exactly what you're doing at one point.

A faster honing surface helps, which is one reason I'm such a fan of diamond plates, but diamonds aren't at all necessary to prevent the problem.

Try to actively notice how you're standing, how you're holding your wrists and arms and do careful repeat motions. Go slow if you need to. While some experienced guys hone really quickly if you can't while maintaining the proper angle then don't worry about it, it's not a race.
User avatar
By Jacob
#1288832
ED65 wrote:Osvaldd, you just need more practice. Virtually everyone freehand sharpening has been guilty of doing exactly what you're doing at one point.
Yes "rounding over" is rightly deprecated.
The cure is to aim instead at "rounding under", whereby you dip the handle or blade slightly as you go.
A bit like the advice to plane a straight edge on a board by aiming at a hollow scoop, rather than just planing flat and ending up with it rounded.
The modern sharpening "experts" are best ignored - the endless paraphernalia of gadgets, exotic stones, having to flatten everything, make it more difficult and much more expensive; they are just trying to make you buy stuff!
By sploo
#1288846
ED65 wrote:Osvaldd, you just need more practice. Virtually everyone freehand sharpening has been guilty of doing exactly what you're doing at one point.

A faster honing surface helps, which is one reason I'm such a fan of diamond plates, but diamonds aren't at all necessary to prevent the problem.

Try to actively notice how you're standing, how you're holding your wrists and arms and do careful repeat motions. Go slow if you need to. While some experienced guys hone really quickly if you can't while maintaining the proper angle then don't worry about it, it's not a race.

Indeed.

I could never get a chisel sharp on my old Norton India oil stone, but having started to get into handplanes I got some advice on freehand sharpening (and watched a few videos - e.g. Paul Sellers). Having started with the "scary sharp" system (i.e. abrasive paper on glass) I moved to a cheap set of diamond plates.

Some time ago I thought I'd just try the old oil stone again, and (surprise surprise) that also works too. Basically; watch some videos and practice (and be prepared to regrind the odd cheap chisel or plane blade when you fail the first few times). Once you've got the hang of it, freehand sharpening takes minutes (sometimes just seconds) and pretty much any abrasive surface will work - just choose the one you like to use.
User avatar
By Jacob
#1288861
Jacob wrote:............
The modern sharpening "experts" are best ignored - the endless paraphernalia of gadgets, exotic stones, having to flatten everything, make it more difficult and much more expensive; they are just trying to make you buy stuff!
I forgot to say - cutting and sharpening is a hobby with a lot of people, especially knives. Fine, as long as they don't go around stabbing people, or letting it hold up their vegetable slicing etc. But woodworkers don't need to be too obsessive if all they want to do is woodwork. Keep it simple - and cheap!
PS oil stones do need cleaning and refreshening or they clog up and stop working. I use a 3M Diapad because I've got one, but other things will do - e.g. stainless steel pan scrubber plus white spirit. A magnet is good for lifting off the swarf.
By SammyQ
#1288966
Nom! Nom! Nom! Lovely popcorn...Let me know when to join in with the chorus! :D
Cue Animal Farm sheep bleating "Rounded bevels good, straight bevels baaaaad!" =D>

Sam
User avatar
By sammy.se
#1322117
I've taken the advice on this thread re diamond plates, cheap from Alibaba.

Really happy with the result!! They cost me between £1.50 - £3 each, I bought a handful, different grits and a couple of different designs. Can't ask for much more really. They were delivered within 3 weeks.

I haven't stuck them to anything yet. I have some glass plate which I previously used for the wet n dry paper method. I may epoxy them to that, but for now, I just use them on a table top.

I'll post pics at some point. I did sharpen some kitchen knives was well - hair shaving sharpness achieved !

Really happy - a super sharpening solution for £10 all in!

Thanks ED65!

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
User avatar
By Jacob
#1322255
Osvaldd wrote:Just need more practice and patience I guess. and resist the temptation to lift the chisel a degree or two to get quicker results...

@Ttrees I personally try to avoid powered tools after a nasty accident with a belt sander..

Yes that's it in a sentence. You have to wait for the burr to show (or to be felt) and if this seems slow maybe do more of a grind than a hone, on a coarser medium, but still without lifting the angle.