Workshop Extraction

[J_Ashley]

I am soon to have an insulated timber outbuilding constructed in the garden to be used as a workshop, and am planning the extraction needed so I thought I would ask for advice.

Workshop size:
The workshop will be 3.5m x 5m, so 17.5m² in area. Due to regulations I need to keep the external height below 2.5m and so the interior ceiling will be about 2.1m tall, giving a rough volume of 36.75m³.

Usage:
I commonly make use of both softwoods and hardwoods (including some of the less pleasant exotic woods). I use a lot of hand tools, but there will also power tools (specifically the router) and some lighter machinery (drum sander).

Plan:
My current plan is to get some form of vacuum extractor that has the power and flexibility to cope with both 100mm and 32mm hoses. This can then serve the multi-function purpose of being used with power tools, machinery and manually vacuuming waste off the floor/benches.

Currently I’m looking at either the Numatic NVD750 or the Record DX4000. However, due to inexperience, I’m not sure whether a twin motor is definitely a necessity or actually overkill? If it’s the latter, then maybe something along the lines of the Record RSDE/2 might suffice.

In addition to this I was thinking of getting an air filter to capture the very fine dust. I like the idea of the timer function, and so the two that have got my attention are the Jet AFS500 or the Record AC400.

Advice:
Given the workshop size and intended usage, is my general equipment plan suitable?

Do people have recommendations about which bits of kit would be better?

Many thanks,

 

[MattRoberts]

There isn't a one-stop solution to cater for all extraction needs. If you try and get one of these vacs that has a 100mm port on it, it will always be a compromise against a proper chip extractor for the late machines and a proper vac for the power tools.

Depending on what large machines you have, you're probably much better off focusing on spending your money on a decent chip extractor. You can pick up a shop vac for the power tools for around £50,so that's the easy bit.

The air filters are nice to have, but they're no replacement for capturing the dust at source

 

[Sideways]

In a small workshop, noise levels may be important to you. The cheapest shop vacs tend to be very noisy. Something like a little Numatic Henry is much quieter, but doesn't have variable suction or an outlet to connect a power tool and auto switch the vacuum. It is definitely worth auditioning machines if this matters to you.
Matt has given good advice towards a chip collector for machines that need a big airflow - especially planers - but chip collectors take up a lot of space and most (?) of them leak fine dust so in my opinion not suited for sanding machines.
The Numatic NVD750 has noticeably greater airflow than the single motor version, can take a HEPA filter for fine dust and is still quieter than many shop vacs. They are expensive but depending on your uses and priorities it could be the best compromise if you need one device to do it all. Note that they are marginal with a planer thicknesser as even with 2 motors they have far less airflow than even a cheap chip collector.

And I agree that air filters are a good idea. I have a secondhand Microclene model which is noisier than I expected but is useful. They only take a few hundred watts so a plug in timer that you can buy for under a tenner will give you the ability to run it for a preset time at the push of a button.

 

[J_Ashley]

Probably like it is for many people, space is at a premium – hence the temptation to go for ‘one size fits all approach’. That said, I recognize extraction is important and I don’t want to end up with an approach that doesn’t do a good enough job.

The machinery side of things is likely to be limited to a drum sander, pillar drill and bandsaw. I’m thinking that the drum sander will be the worst offender of these, and I’m assuming that this should throw out less waste that a planer. Obviously we’re talking about a different particle size of waste material, but should something like the twin motor Numatic NVD750 be able to cope with that and hence avoid the need for an outright chip collector? Equally if you think the chip extractor and separate shop vac is the far better option, then please say.

Good idea about the plug in timer – expands the air filter options.

Thanks for the input so far.

 

[LancsRick]

You want hplv for the sander and bandsaw and drill, so if that's your limit at present then go down that route, just realise it will be the wrong tool for the job if you get a planer etc

 

[MikeJhn]

The NVD750: https://www.axminster.co.uk/numatic-nvd ... r-ax782721 will fulfil your short term needs and at a push may cope with a small planer in the future, but the planer you get will need a non torturous path to extract from.

I have the Numatic equivalent and does not cope with my 200mm planer.

Mike

 

[sunnybob]

I have almost identical space to you.
I have a sip 0190 with 100 mm pipe. I dont run 100 mm though. I use 62 mm pipe and have it connected to a 350 bandsaw, a large router table, a 4" belt /6" disc sander, and a combi table saw/ mitre saw. Each one has a blast gate so I only open the one on the machine I'm working with.
It does EVERYTHING. Chips, dust, pencils, scrap paper with cutting lists, everything goes up that pipe.
I also have another outlet on a 62 mm hose that I use as a shop floor and workbench vac. This hose I use when I am using the lunchbox thicknesser or bobbin sander on the other side of the workshop.

Its VERY NOISY. No, I mean INCREDIBLY NOISY. Untill you put it inside a noise reducing cabinet, and then you can barely hear it.

I'm lucky I can open both ends of my garage (workshop) and let the dust blow through. But yes, get a roof mounted air filter and run it almost continuously.
And STILL use a mask! You only get one set of lungs.

 

[Sideways]

For your application, I agree, the NVD750 looks a good choice. I compared the single and twin motor versions less than 6 weeks ago and we bought the twin.

A tip is to remove the diffuser from the air outlet on the top of the machine. Just let the outlet air blast straight up, or alternately put a 50mm flex hose on it and exhause the air someplace else. Either way, it reduces the noise noticeably. Putting that little screw on plastic deflector in a powerful airflow generates turbulence and a surprising amount of noise.

A second tip if you are confident with mains electricals is to buy a "Kemo" brand "master slave module" for about £30 plus a box and some bits. This will let you add automated switching of the extractor for not too much money. That way you only have the extractor running when the tool is on. Note that those modules have an all up limit of 16A for the tool and vacuum. The NVD750 will take about 10 of those amps so if you want to connect a 2Kw router as the "master" device, you'll need to connect a relay or contactor to the slave output and let that switch the power to the vacuum.

I plan to try sunnybob's idea of putting a box around our really noisy record extractors too sounds great.

 

[MattRoberts]

You want hplv for the sander and bandsaw and drill, so if that's your limit at present then go down that route, just realise it will be the wrong tool for the job if you get a planer etc

Did you write that incorrectly? A bandsaw (assuming it has 100mm port/s) needs an HVLP chip extractor to effectively clear dust from it, and a drum sander definitely needs an HVLP chip extractor, preferably with a fine dust filter. An LVHP vac will perform poorly on both machines, kind of like pointing a vacuum hose at a sandstorm.

 

[LancsRick]

I'd envisaged small kit but you're right that's a false assumption by me.

 

[J_Ashley]

Mostly I work on stringed instruments, so the machinery tends to be lighter stuff. The messiest thing seems to be the router, and there is also a lot of sanding involved (both hand and drum)! I’m fairly confident that I won’t be getting a planer anytime soon though.

I’ve read the siggy_7 guide, and I’ve also just been making my way through the Bill Pentz website on dust extraction – I now feel I’m suffering from ‘the more I learn the less I now” problem. My initial thought after reading the Medical Risks/Doc’s Order section was “never set foot in a small workshop again”! Reading further through the big take away seems to be to capture as much of the dust at source as possible. Being in the UK his Clear Vue Cyclone contraption isn’t really an option – plus I think it’s too tall to even fit.

From the advice people have posted so far it looks like I’m going to be needing a LPHV (chip extractor) for the machinery, and then a separate shop vac for the router and any surface cleaning. Regarding a dust extractor, am I still going to need to go with something that includes a filter to get the fine dust? I guess I might as well throw the air filter on top of this too.

Essentially, I’m looking to identify what types of extractor equipment I need (hopefully making progress here), and then buy ones that complement each other therefore providing the best overall package.

 

[MattRoberts]

Sounds like you're heading in the right direction. What's your budget?

 

[J_Ashley]

I have an overall budget to include the workshop plus some equipment, so it’s more a question of how I divide that budget up. Dust extraction is a pretty high priority for me, so I’m coming to the conclusion that I'd sooner spend more on that now even if it means pushing other purchases into the future.

I guess I was hoping to originally do it for about £750 (i.e. Numatic NVD750 + Record AC400). However, now I’m leaning towards the three-piece approach (chip extractor + shop vac + air filter), and therefore expanding the budget and allowing for some flexibility at the expense of other equipment.

The chip extractor seems to be the most variable in price and performance. I’m not sure whether something more ‘standard’ would be best, or one that incorporates a cyclone (although these look very expensive!). Equally, how effective are these Cyclone Central/Dust Commander accessories?

I guess I naively hoped that investing more in one piece of equipment might mean I could get away with a cheaper version of another. However, it seems each extraction device serves a different purpose, and so they all need to function to a good standard.

 

[screwpainting]

The best dust avoidance system I have come up with for me, personally, is to have a wash of clean air across my face created by an 'extract to outside' wall mounted fan pulling fresh air across the area I am working in, from an slightly open window/door/port, at the end I am standing in and extracted/vented at the other end of the shop. You can install all sorts of complicated and expensive dust/ chip extraction but they only get rid of 90 odd % of the problem. It's that last lingering % of fine dust that defeats technology. I just use a cyclone and shop vac for the bulk and simply pull in fresh air across the work area to get rid of everything else.
It screws up the heat retention in winter but in the long run, I think that's a small price to pay for not having to trust dust extraction companies claims and spend silly money on something that only applies for minuets at a time, can cost a fortune and for a hobby worker, would be better spent on complete avoidance rather than just relying on a machine to keep your lungs safe.

Bogeys are made from very fine, almost imperceptible dust and snot!
Never! from chips and large sawdust particles. That has to illustrate the importance of fine dust removal and the harmlessness of what all the dust extraction hype concentrates on. If it don't make bogeys, its okay, if it does, don't let it get up your bugle

Ban the bogey, save money, live long and prosper.

Bogey dodger tips welcome... perhaps make them a sticky


I fixed a garden shredder today so I must be right 8)

 

[MattRoberts]

I have an overall budget to include the workshop plus some equipment, so it’s more a question of how I divide that budget up. Dust extraction is a pretty high priority for me, so I’m coming to the conclusion that I'd sooner spend more on that now even if it means pushing other purchases into the future.

I guess I was hoping to originally do it for about £750 (i.e. Numatic NVD750 + Record AC400). However, now I’m leaning towards the three-piece approach (chip extractor + shop vac + air filter), and therefore expanding the budget and allowing for some flexibility at the expense of other equipment.

The chip extractor seems to be the most variable in price and performance. I’m not sure whether something more ‘standard’ would be best, or one that incorporates a cyclone (although these look very expensive!). Equally, how effective are these Cyclone Central/Dust Commander accessories?

I guess I naively hoped that investing more in one piece of equipment might mean I could get away with a cheaper version of another. However, it seems each extraction device serves a different purpose, and so they all need to function to a good standard.

Ok, that's a decent budget. Something like this https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-h ... eal-717658 gives you a 2hp extractor with a fine filter for £470. Enough oomph to run any machine or even a ducting system. I have a single garage the same size as your space, and whilst tight it's workable with a ducting system and several machines.

In terms of a vac, these are a lot cheaper. I have this https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-ttb430 ... 240v/70472 which has power take off (the vac starts when you run the power tool). I have it connected up to a simple cyclone.

The main benefit of a cyclone is simply to reduce the number of times you need to empty the bag and clean the filter, and they're well worth it!

 

[J_Ashley]

Thanks for the recommendation.

Having looked at the chip extractor you recommended, I’m a bit confused over Axminster’s offerings. I notice there’s a ‘Trade’ version at £450 (https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-t ... tor-508334) although that seems to only have 750w power and a much lower airflow of 850 m³/hr. However, the next model in the ‘Trade’ series (https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-t ... tor-508336) at £709 seems to have the same 1.5kw power as the Hobby Series but still have a lower airflow at 1,200 m³/h.

Unless I’m misunderstanding something, all the airflow measurements are at 100mm and all filter to 1 micron. Does the Hobby Series model really to have the best performance figures?

Equally, how does the Jet (https://www.axminster.co.uk/jet-dc1100a ... eal-717141) compare?

 

[J_Ashley]

Having now read a few reviews, it seems to be the old story of build quality. Whilst the hobby series may have good bang for buck, some seem to have had difficulties using it. Probably worth checking them out it store.

Running a cyclone before the shop was mentioned. Could the same principle also be applied to the chip extractor? In combination with finer filters, is that essentially what these ‘fine dust extractors’ on Axminster are?

 

[MattRoberts]

Having now read a few reviews, it seems to be the old story of build quality. Whilst the hobby series may have good bang for buck, some seem to have had difficulties using it. Probably worth checking them out it store.

Running a cyclone before the shop was mentioned. Could the same principle also be applied to the chip extractor? In combination with finer filters, is that essentially what these ‘fine dust extractors’ on Axminster are?

I think it's durability rather than quality. The hobby makes are only rated at a few hours use per week for example, whereas trade is rated for much more.

Yes a cyclone on the chip extractor would be great, but it increases the price dramatically, and reduces the airflow (thus needing a more powerful motor to compensate). It also starts to take up a lot more room in the shop

 

[siggy_7]

I'm glad you're going away from multi motor extractors - they are cumbersome for power tools (and get starved of airflow, which they motors need for cooling). For your budget, you can easily get a shop vac type extractor for general duties (I really like my Nilfisk Alto, a nicer built machine than the budget offerings at not a great deal more expense) and a chip extractor for the bandsaw and sander. Chip extractors are all about the size of the impeller - have a read of my notes on this, and then try to glean what's in the different products you're looking at. I would imagine a decent 1hp unit would give you a passable flow rate, although a 2hp machine would be better and more future proof for other machines.

I would prioritise those two extractors first. If you have budget left for an air cleaner, the AC400 is a nice unit.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[MikeJhn]

Out in the real world, I have this https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-h ... eal-717658 as my chip extractor and the equivalent of this: https://www.axminster.co.uk/numatic-nvd ... r-ax782721 for hand tools, both have been excellent and I can't see any reason for them ever to need updating. I work alone in my workshop all day, so they are only on one at a time, but recently when making the eight 2.5M x 400mm wardrobe doors the chip extractor was on for hours on end and never faltered.

You will go on for ever getting conflicting/contradicting advice on Extractors, but in the end you need both a LVHP and a HVLP for a workshop environment.

Mike