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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 13:37 
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Halo Jones wrote:
...... It is funny the exposed windows look terrible but all the north facing windows look practically brand new.

....

Thats always how it is - the sunny side gets more much temperature variation and stress. Out of the sun the max temperature is going to be max air temperature and no higher. In the sun things can get very hot.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 18:56 
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I use nothing but Linseed oil paint and its been a revelation for me over the last few years. I use Oricalcum https://www.linseedpaint.com

I have just completed 2 large projects in London (one with 50 sash windows and one with about 16) and have another job which is being done now.

The paint dries quickly if you use an infrared heat lamp so can be done when its cold and reasonably quickly.

On a large job I think it may actually be cheaper due to the fact you get so much better coverage. The supply costs are not that different to Dulux weather shield... and it won't fall off in 3 years.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 18:58 
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You also only need linseed oil and the paint ...thats it. The linseed soap is good but white spirit is just as good too.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 19:27 
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I'd like to see about £15 cheaper as I think its overpriced but I have used to good effect


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 19:46 
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rhrwilliams wrote:
You also only need linseed oil and the paint ...thats it. The linseed soap is good but white spirit is just as good too.
Have you ever had any issues with blotchy colour like some of my pics ? I used meths to degrease, so perhaps white spirit behaves differently ? I'm glad you posted cause it's nice to hear you have enough confidence in it to do a large batch of windows. Out of curiosity do you prime with raw oil and how many coats do you end up giving it so it's finished ?

Your post has made me feel excited about it again !
Cheers
Coley

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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 19:56 
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Jacob wrote:
Halo Jones wrote:
...... It is funny the exposed windows look terrible but all the north facing windows look practically brand new.

....

Thats always how it is - the sunny side gets more much temperature variation and stress. Out of the sun the max temperature is going to be max air temperature and no higher. In the sun things can get very hot.
That might explain what happened earlier this week. I've got an outdoor electronic thermometer and I needed to move it so it was with in range of the indoor one. I was having a fiddle and found the minimum and maximum temperature for the last few weeks. The sensor was tucked away a little bit but even so the highest reading was 54 degrees. I know it gets warm out there but didn't expect that kind of temperature this time of year- that's nearly as hot as my radiator ! When you look at it like that, it's no wonder some finishs have difficulty adhering to the wood.

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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 19:59 
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Yes I have had had issues with blotchy colour , but only with colours (e.g not white) and only going over half burnt off / stripped joinery . However the blotchiness went after giving another coat of paint....

First coat with about 50/50 linseed oil for softwood and then 2 subsequent coats in just the paint. 3 coats in total.
For hardwood you are supposed to mix some balsam turpentine in also to dilute to let it set in.

A friend of mine who has restored a victorian sailing yacht has painted the whole thing in linseed and swears by diluting down a bit with balsam turpentine and says the best finish is obtained by putting it on with a rag, although I've not tried this.

I have on my own house (not on a work job) because I am lazy, done just 2 coats on some things and 5 years on they are still fine.

I was very very nervous the first job I did with Linseed paint as the contractor had never used it and I was petrified it wouldn't dry as it does take its time.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 20:13 
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I'm a little petrified now of using it on a paid for job. I've not heard of the turpentine thing before. I'm trying to follow the instructions by the letter this time, just to see if it overcomes the blotchy issue which the allback guy seemed was 95% likely to using meths for degreasing. It's interesting you say the blotchyness went after the 2nd coat. This has had 3 now and it's as visible as ever.

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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 20:21 
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Image

It must be a brand specific recommendation cause the allback has no mention of using it. Thanks for posting the link to the stuff you use. I'll have a proper look around on their website to see what I can learn.
Edit

Image
Image

The allback guy said priming wasn't necessary, but your goes into detail of the ratio it should be mixed to. I reckon your paints probably better than the stuff I'm trying. The 30ml tester pots they offer would have also came in handy !


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 20:32 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKj_qxSc0v4

Watch this.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 21:23 
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So that's another different brand recommending the balsam turpentine. Just had a look in the workshop and the only thing I could find is this
Image
Not quite the same. I'll have a look about and see if I can find some.
So far my next samples of linseed paint will be-

Wash down with linseed soap. Prime with raw oil followed by paint

Wash down with meths, then paint straight on

Wash down with linseed soap then paint straight on

Lastly do the turpentine mixture followed by 2 coats you recommended

That should give me a bit more idea about what's going on. I'll try and do it from the same piece of wood so the results have more meaning.




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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 21:54 
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It's all sounding like a bit of a rabbit hole TBH. I think I'll stick (no pun intended) with normal paint.

Good thread - lots of viewpoints and info.

BugBear

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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 03:19 
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bugbear wrote:
It's all sounding like a bit of a rabbit hole TBH. I think I'll stick (no pun intended) with normal paint.

Good thread - lots of viewpoints and info.

BugBear
I'm starting to like the sound of this other brand of linseed paint though....

Image
The postage seems reasonable compared with the 9+ quid I paid earlier.
Just found this on there website aswell
Image
Seems like they already put the zinc in the paint, so no extra tins/cost required.
They also sell 30ml samples !!! The entire window only took 40ml so that'd be awesome.
The thing I really like, is this brand of linseed paint being trialed on a massive job with very very good feedback. I also like the attention to detail on how to use it on hardwood.

I'm seriously starting to consider trialing this sort. The allback doesn't recommend turpentine where as this brand does. I could follow allback's instructions to the letter and if it has issues, it has to be the paint. Same goes for this brand. Go through the motions using the recommended turpentine mixture first, followed by paint. If I get a sample of a similar colour I should find out if certain colours are more prone to blotchyness than others. For the sake of fifty quid, it'd then give two linseed paint manufacturers a good chance of success.
Did I mention this new brand has the zinc already added- wow !! lol

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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 08:12 
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Bug Bear et all - I have this circular argument on almost every job I spec Linseed paint on, then have the circular argument once more with the decorating contractor.....

The problem is "normal" paint is rubbish so its just not worth using. Not if you want a long lasting quality job in any event.
Most stuff painted with modern paints (especially in high exposure areas and on things with moving parts like windows) starts to fail after 3-5 years and you have to repeat the process. Expensive and a waste of time and puts historic joinery at risk of decay.

That is because very broadly paints yeas ago contained heavy crude solvents or lead - which although was not good for your health actually made some good quality paints that flexed with the wood and lasted. You cannot use these paints anymore (except lead paint if is a listed building or for boat building but I never use this) so you are left with the rubbish available now.

Georgian and Victorian paints were usually Lead based but with Linseed oil in them also. The modern Linseed paints obviously do not have lead in but are very similar in performance.

Modern paints such as Delux Weathershield for example basically have solvents in them that are EU compliant and in short makes the finish go rock solid - ;like a sheet of plastic over the wood which presents 3 problems; (see data sheet)
http://media.builderdepot.co.uk/media/c ... 470806.pdf
1) It does not move so when the wood expands and cracks the paint does too.
2) Once cracked - which it will crack - it lets water in, but it cant get out so it rots the wood.
3) Once cracked it splits and breaks off - e.g it does not soak into the grain.

Microporous paint is a joke really and does not provide the breathability required for timber. Especially softwood which moves more than hardwood.

Also, why are we using these chemicals on windows - here is a list of the solvent make up of Dulux Weathershield ;
Contains; 3-IODO-2-PROPYNYL-N-BUTYL CARBAMATE, ETHYL METHYL KETOXIME
Its bad for the environment and just unnecessary as the product does not perform well either.

Linseed paint soaks into the grain and is very flexible and breathable, meaning that it sticks to the wood and stays there. Its more like a stain in performance than a paint. So, 10 years down the line the window may look dirty and need re-painting but the wood will be basically still covered and protected.

Also we need to think about why wood rots ? You need a sustained moisture level over a long period of time, so in theory if windows left unpainted - if they can dry out they will not rot. So we can see why Dulux and the like rots the windows as it holds the moisture in, thus meaning sustained elevated moisture levels + Rot.

As for application, Linseed paint is just paint, its just slower to dry than modern paints with massive amounts of chemicals to accelerate drying. Its no slower to dry than lead paint. You can put it on with 3 coats with little else other than a paint brush. Its really really simple.

Coley is clearly a craftsman, demonstrated by his fantastic work posted on here and is looking to obtain a absolutely first class finish ,so is going to great lengths to obtain the best finish possible and experiment with Linseed paint - hats off to him he's a craftsman. However, you don't need to do this to get a decent window and the reality is, there is no actual difference in application to "normal" paint - example
Dulux Weathershield has 3 parts to their "system" - a liquid you brush on the wood, an undercoat and 2 to coat - so 3 tins of paint.
Linseed paint - 1 tin of paint and some linseed oil to thin down the first coat if you want.
Both systems use a thinner - white spirit / balsam turpentine - basically the same thing.
Both systems use a paint brush

Rant over.

Coley - I would suggest you phone up Michalus from Oriculcum who runs the firm as he is a very helpful chap and will talk to you about issues you are having. He has decorated some serious buildings and has many many case histories and examples of the paint being used to great success and lasting a long long time.
I have always bought from them as they are the only people I am aware of who have been operating on a consistent basis (e.g not running out of paint etc), they are also the cheapest all things considered, and the chap who runs it is very helpful and will always discuss projects with you.


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 08:55 
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Thanks for your time explaining this and recommending it in the first place. I haven't been called a craftsman before so appreciate your kind words. I enjoy my work and if this'll help whatever I make last that bit longer, it has to be worth the effort.

Oriculcums website seems much better setup with what could help a first time user- small tester pots, free printed colour cards, hand painted colour cards (for a small fee) If you're after a specific colour, the painted cards would save you buying lots of tester pots. I think I read somewhere on their site they can make specific colours from a sample, thats also a bonus! I think allback paints can be mixed but its something you have to do yourself by buying different coloured tins. Zinc being already added is also a bonus !

Proper excited about this again now. Not sure where I'm gonna put all these samples though !!!

Cheers
Coley

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