Moderators: Random Orbital Bob, nev, CHJ, Noel, Charley

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By Geoff_S
#1337829
Droogs wrote:
nev wrote:Also why aren't the cars themselves covered in solar panels? (serious question) surely a roof and bonnets worth has got to have some effect?


have a look here
https://sonomotors.com/


Well based on our current weather, I’d be getting the bus a lot!
By MusicMan
#1337833
nev wrote:Also why aren't the cars themselves covered in solar panels? (serious question) surely a roof and bonnets worth has got to have some effect?


Serious answer. Solar irradiation is about 1 kW per square metre when sunny and when the receptor is pointing directly at the sun (which it isn't most of the time). Conversion efficiency is 20 - 25% (slow increases coming but not much). So with a roof area of a few square metres and an optimistic overall efficiency of 10%, on a good day one gets a few hundred watts, say an optimistic 4 kW hours in a full day. On a car such as a Leaf with 40 KWH to do 160 wish miles, it would add about 16 miles range on a very sunny day.

So yes, it has some effect but hardly worth the expense. I did work out that it was just about feasible to run a 70 ft narrowboat with solar panel on the roof. These have a lot of roof and need little power.

I used to be engineering director of a solar energy company. Solar panels are worth while (I have them on a south-facing roof) but not on most mobile units. You can get 40 - 50% efficiency on the compound semiconductor cells used in satellites and the ISS, but those are *really* expensive.
By Woody2Shoes
#1337835
nev wrote:Thanks Droogs, it does.

I just find it incomprehensible that there will (ever?) be an infrastructure in place in the next ten or twenty years that can cater for every household, place of business, car park (think hospitals and large institutions and employers etc) and every vehicle in every street, town and city in the UK, accessible to each of those 38million vehicles including the vans, trucks and motorcycles (probably the easiest to electrify) not to mention the ships and planes etc.

Once the ICE sales ban is implemented we're almost certain to then ban resales within x years too.

The whole 'lets get this thing done' seems to be thought up and implemented by those that have private parking both at home and office, plenty of disposable income and absolutely no idea what the logistics, cost (where's that coming from?) or timescales would be for basically a complete restructuring of UK's transport network (for want of a better term).
I'm all for innovation, development and progress but the infrastructure must be in place before the rules by the rich and shameless are implemented. I'm not a communist by the way even though reading this back I seem to be anti- wealth, I'm just an average Joe who thinks I'm more than likely to be priced off the road in the not too distant future in a futile attempt to appease the greenies so that our tiny little Island can say "it wasn't our fault!" to Asia, Africa and the Americas when the next ice age comes along.


I think you need to bear in mind that a government suggestion that it will ban the sale of ICE vehicles at some date more than a decade into the future is simply a way to gain greenwash points in the media based on the latest advice from 'advisors'. This is not a statement of intent to actually do anything, just a space-chimp-like expectation that the world will have moved on by then.
In the same way that we can still see horse-drawn vehicles, I'm sure we will still see ICE vehicles in a few decades time.
I think it is difficult to appreciate the pace of technological change.
Quiz question: a century ago, the largest single consumer of British-mined coal was?
I am enthusiastic and optimistic that our transport and electricity supply infrastructure will be vastly different in a decade or so - it needs to be.
User avatar
By Sheffield Tony
#1337841
Indeed ! Words from politicians about what will happen in 15 years time are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

IMHO, we are addressing quite the wrong problem with worrying about what fuels cars. More we need to worry about why people need to spend so much time charging around like blue-arsed flies by all forms of transport - like providing a sensible distribution of housing and employment, encouraging work from home, technological alternatives to face to face meetings, etc, etc.
By Cheshirechappie
#1337845
Sheffield Tony wrote:Indeed ! Words from politicians about what will happen in 15 years time are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

IMHO, we are addressing quite the wrong problem with worrying about what fuels cars. More we need to worry about why people need to spend so much time charging around like blue-arsed flies by all forms of transport - like providing a sensible distribution of housing and employment, encouraging work from home, technological alternatives to face to face meetings, etc, etc.


Indeed. But - you can't tax those as easily, can you ....
By Bodgers
#1337846
Woody2Shoes wrote:This is not a statement of intent to actually do anything, just a space-chimp-like expectation that the world will have moved on by then.
In the same way that we can still see horse-drawn vehicles, I'm sure we will still see ICE vehicles in a few decades time.
I think it is difficult to appreciate the pace of technological change.
Quiz question: a century ago, the largest single consumer of British-mined coal was?

The action is stop the sale of cars. That will happen, but the dates may change.

Yes, you'll see ICE cars, but you probably won't be able to buy a new one. Or if you can, it will be a low production expensive exotic.
Last edited by Bodgers on 21 Feb 2020, 18:59, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Trainee neophyte
#1337847
[code][/code]
Sheffield Tony wrote:Indeed ! Words from politicians about what will happen in 15 years time are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

IMHO, we are addressing quite the wrong problem with worrying about what fuels cars. More we need to worry about why people need to spend so much time charging around like blue-arsed flies by all forms of transport - like providing a sensible distribution of housing and employment, encouraging work from home, technological alternatives to face to face meetings, etc, etc.


I live in the middle of nowhere, in a foreign country, but when I'm in the UK the over-riding questions are: "Don't these people have any work to do?" How can everyone afford to be on the road, all the time? Where are they going? What are they doing? Why aren't they at work? The difference in traffic is astonishing. It's not just white vans delivering Amazon carp, although there is a fair amount of that.
By Bodgers
#1337848
Sheffield Tony wrote:Indeed ! Words from politicians about what will happen in 15 years time are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

IMHO, we are addressing quite the wrong problem with worrying about what fuels cars. More we need to worry about why people need to spend so much time charging around like blue-arsed flies by all forms of transport - like providing a sensible distribution of housing and employment, encouraging work from home, technological alternatives to face to face meetings, etc, etc.
It is possible to do both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
By dangles
#1337856
I read this on a "green" site and admittedly it was from 2017 and I've read that some manufacturers throw one in for "free" and the government give a grant of upto 75%.
With the recent huge boom in the number of electric car owners, more and more people in the UK are choosing to install electric car charging points at home. However, they don’t come cheap. A typical cost for a charge point plus installation is £1000 .
By Woody2Shoes
#1337863
dangles wrote:I read this on a "green" site and admittedly it was from 2017 and I've read that some manufacturers throw one in for "free" and the government give a grant of upto 75%.
With the recent huge boom in the number of electric car owners, more and more people in the UK are choosing to install electric car charging points at home. However, they don’t come cheap. A typical cost for a charge point plus installation is £1000 .

GB subsidies are about 3000 ukl per vehicle (but luxury car tax can be a nasty surprise for some). Some manufacturers offer a 'free' charger install with a new car. I wonder how long it will be before EVs are taxed - that will be an acknowledgement that they are truly mainstream.
The answer to the quiz question earlier was the Royal Navy.
By Woody2Shoes
#1337866
Trainee neophyte wrote:[code][/code]
Sheffield Tony wrote:Indeed ! Words from politicians about what will happen in 15 years time are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

IMHO, we are addressing quite the wrong problem with worrying about what fuels cars. More we need to worry about why people need to spend so much time charging around like blue-arsed flies by all forms of transport - like providing a sensible distribution of housing and employment, encouraging work from home, technological alternatives to face to face meetings, etc, etc.


I live in the middle of nowhere, in a foreign country, but when I'm in the UK the over-riding questions are: "Don't these people have any work to do?" How can everyone afford to be on the road, all the time? Where are they going? What are they doing? Why aren't they at work? The difference in traffic is astonishing. It's not just white vans delivering Amazon carp, although there is a fair amount of that.

I remember visiting a small town in rural India and being taken aback by the number of people walking around the streets. It later dawned on me that the population density at home is similar but we're all whizzing around in cars.
The car use that really seems barmy to me is the number of people who will drive three or four miles to take the dog for a walk - we're in leafy open countryside.
By Bodgers
#1337872
dangles wrote:I read this on a "green" site and admittedly it was from 2017 and I've read that some manufacturers throw one in for "free" and the government give a grant of upto 75%.
With the recent huge boom in the number of electric car owners, more and more people in the UK are choosing to install electric car charging points at home. However, they don’t come cheap. A typical cost for a charge point plus installation is £1000 .


No.

With the OLEV grant it is more like £300-500.

I have just paid £300 to PodPoint to get mine installed. And that's everything included.
By Woody2Shoes
#1337880
Bodgers wrote:
dangles wrote:I read this on a "green" site and admittedly it was from 2017 and I've read that some manufacturers throw one in for "free" and the government give a grant of upto 75%.
With the recent huge boom in the number of electric car owners, more and more people in the UK are choosing to install electric car charging points at home. However, they don’t come cheap. A typical cost for a charge point plus installation is £1000 .


No.

With the OLEV grant it is more like £300-500.

I have just paid £300 to PodPoint to get mine installed. And that's everything included.


A typical charger will cost about £500 plus perhaps about half a day's installation. The OLEV 'grant' is 500 or 800 in Scotland so you can see how the numbers work out.
By AJB Temple
#1337903
Be wary about installation costs. It is cheap and easy as long as your consumer unit is reasonably close to the location where you want the charger.

It needs a beefy cable and this gets expensive over distance. Higher amperage charging is good and 3 phase much better.

In my case the garage is 50 metres from the incoming supply and I wanted a fast charger. If you need to trench it and cable it with thick armoured, then cost goes up by a few hundred pounds at least (I am my own digger operator).