Woodworking courses

[Greedo]

What are your opinions on them guys?

They seem to be very expensive. And even more so with travel and accommodation. Would you reckon £7000 is worth it for a 12 week beginner course studying all aspects for beginners or would you reckon a longer course like 48 weeks or would I be better just using the money to buy great quality hand tools and some machinery and just practice, practice, practice on my own from youtube videos.

I have what I would describe as decent hobby skills but complicated joints like dovetails always look a bit shoddy and need improving. I just want to make good quality stuff for myself and family.

Cheers

 

[Bodgers]

Peter Sefton, Chris Tribe and Waters acland all do shorter ones.

I am considering the sharpening course at Peter Sefton's and the Workbench course at Chris Tribe's school.

Peter Sefton does a 1 week dovetail/draw fitting for about 650...

I would be interested to hear anyone's opinions too...

 

[MikeG.]

It seems to me you are asking about two very different things. A 12 week long course (or a 48 week one) sounds like something someone does when looking for a qualification and the way into a career. Having a week with Sellers or some of the guys here who run courses is a very different thing. Starting next autumn I shall be running one or two long weekend courses in my workshop for people whose dovetails/ m&ts are a bit ropey, or who have trouble sharpening a plane or chisel. I expect to help half a dozen old codgers who want to do better work than they currently manage. That's a very different thing from a £7000 12 week programme.

 

[NickN]

Having been to a couple of short courses, and planning at least one or two more, I think they have a very valid reason to exist, and can be very useful both for hobbyists or even aspiring professionals who don't have an apprenticeship or tutor to work with.

However I would very much doubt, personally, that a 12 week or more course is worth doing - for a hobby woodworker. In just a two day course I learnt about the main woodworking joints, and made them, plus sharpening and restoration and many other useful tips, and a one week course should provide most people with more than enough information to go away and start making their own items.

Because ultimately no amount of courses can make someone a good woodworker, that comes down to, as you mentioned, practice, practice and more practice - while taking heed of the advice learned and taking care to ensure proper working and double, triple checking everything.

 

[banjerbill]

If you have basic skills,I feel a course won't be a great benefit except to make you try harder as you have a tutor and probably other students to impress. As you say, practice is the key and if you can discipline yourself to keep at it then that's the way to go IMHO. You can buy a lot of quality dovetail saws for the cost of a course!

Bill

I have just seen MikeG's post and that type of instruction would be much more beneficial.
B

 

[Ttrees]

Wow for that price you would outfit a workshop ...
Have you space for machines ? or space for a/the workshop (hammer)

Now onto hand tools
I think you would do well if you combined the videos of ....
****David Charlesworth**** ... Rob Cosman's slightly dated videos...and newer youtubes
Mitch Peacock's youtubes, David W's on YT for tearout free planing with a bog standard Bailey pattern.

On a lesser note Chris Schwarz, Simon James, I can hopefully find you the thread where I mentioned all my fave's
If you want to make boxes or do fine work, you might agree

Some folks are more in line with site work IMO, so you will have to decipher for yourself who's into what woodworking.
Will have a go looking for that thread
[edit] Here is the link to everyone's fave YT vids.....
post1127877.html?hilit=simon%20james#p1127877

Did I mention David Charlesworth?

Good luck
Tom

 

[Glynne]

If you already have some skills then a structured course might not suit as the prospectus could well cover those areas where you are already proficient. Having done a variety of woodwork over the years I looked at several courses but was loathe to pay money to go over the things I already knew how to do.
The answer for me was to spend 5 days with Roger Berwick a professional cabinet maker (Dodge on this forum) on a 1:1 basis where we made a hall / console table.
A bit daunting at first but the agreement was that if I knew how to do something then we would focus on something else or use tools that I wasn’t familiar with. So having confirmed I was safe on a planer / thicknesser, table saw, bandsaw and router table, Roger introduced me to a radial arm saw, morticer and spindle moulder that I had never used. We used different techniques to cut mortice & tenon joints, I got to use Roger’s tools (and he had a play with some of mine) and overall the week was more about upskilling on my existing knowledge rather than a structured course.
My course was 5 years ago and I’m still in touch with Roger as a friend.
I know Roger still does 1:1 courses so look him up as I can’t recommend him highly enough.

 

[kevinlightfoot]

Being a good maker doesn't necessarily qualify to teach,if you do go down the woodworking course route make lots of inquiries as to the nature of the course a good one to one session is worth more than a weeks tuition in a poorly equipped workshop with a group of students at different levels of skill.7000 pounds is a lot of money if there are half a dozen students each vying for the teachers attention.At prices like those the teacher is laughing all the way to the bank.Why not find a local craftsman who can just instruct you in the discipline you are interested in a good teacher will be concise and will be skilled enough to recognise your strengths and weaknesses and not take you through a course syllabus designed to cover things you don't need .It always amazes me when craftsmen set themselves up as teachers without any qualifications as such.

 

[custard]

There are a few people on this forum who have taught themselves to a decent standard. But in truth, it's really not all that many.

And it's easy to understand why. Teaching yourself anything requires real discipline, commitment, and resolution. The simple fact is most people don't have nearly enough of those characteristics to doggedly plod through the correct training exercises in the correct order (I know I didn't). They'll get side tracked and fall down one woodworking rabbit hole after another. They'll be dizzy from all the conflicting advice on the internet. They'll chicken out from actually getting down to a timber yard and risking looking like a fool in front of the yard hands. They'll get frustrated when something doesn't work and they haven't a clue how to fix it.

Face to face training solves all those problems. You're given appropriate projects in an appropriate sequence, you're accompanied to a timber yard and shown how to behave, it's acknowledged that there are many alternative methods but there's one single preferred workshop method that you'll be expected to follow, endless pointless discussions about this plane versus that chisel are strictly confined to lunch breaks, you're shown how sharp is sharp enough and a single reliable method of getting there, you're expected to turn up at a certain time every day, the equipment is properly maintained and you're shown how to keep it that way.

Many people think training is about some having some time served master at your elbow imparting ancient skills and wisdom. Yes, that's partly true, but the real benefit is there are rigid barriers in place that protect you from your own vacillations, procrastinations, dithering, laziness, greed, fear, and all the other human failings that afflict us all!

 

[custard]

7000 pounds is a lot of money

I agree, it's a great deal of money. But woodworking isn't a cheap pastime. I'm pretty confident there are lots of people on this forum who have, over the years, spent more than £7000 on their hobby, but haven't so much as a stick of decent furniture to show for it.

There are four things a woodworker needs, tools, a space to work, skills, and decent timber.

I'm surprised how many hobbyists will sink all their resources into tools and a workspace, but are unwilling to spend on timber and skills. It's almost as if that for some people woodworking is really all about building a gallery in which to display their tool collection. And hey, if that's what makes someone happy then there's absolutely no harm in it. But for me woodworking is about actually working some wood. And for that skills and timber are the absolute prerequisites, the tools and the space can get figured out as you go along.

 

[custard]

Being a good maker doesn't necessarily qualify to teach

There are people out there who are both lousy makers and lousy teachers, but it hasn't prevented them from offering training!

Seriously, anyone looking for training should invest some careful time in evaluating what's on offer. There are City & Guilds Furniture courses where discipline is non existent and the students vandalise each other work and chuck tools around, and there are commercial training programmes where students are given lengthy, low skill, repetitive projects to keep them tied up and out of the tutor's hair.

Happily there are also truly excellent courses that are widely respected, say Chichester College or Peter Sefton who sometimes posts on this forum.

As always it's about doing your homework.

 

[kevinlightfoot]

Exactly what I was trying to say Custard but you put it across so much more eloquently.

 

[woodbrains]

There are a few people on this forum who have taught themselves to a decent standard. But in truth, it's really not all that many.

And it's easy to understand why. Teaching yourself anything requires real discipline, commitment, and resolution. The simple fact is most people don't have nearly enough of those characteristics to doggedly plod through the correct training exercises in the correct order (I know I didn't). They'll get side tracked and fall down one woodworking rabbit hole after another. They'll be dizzy from all the conflicting advice on the internet. They'll chicken out from actually getting down to a timber yard and risking looking like a fool in front of the yard hands. They'll get frustrated when something doesn't work and they haven't a clue how to fix it.

Face to face training solves all those problems. You're given appropriate projects in an appropriate sequence, you're accompanied to a timber yard and shown how to behave, it's acknowledged that there are many alternative methods but there's one single preferred workshop method that you'll be expected to follow, endless pointless discussions about this plane versus that chisel are strictly confined to lunch breaks, you're shown how sharp is sharp enough and a single reliable method of getting there, you're expected to turn up at a certain time every day, the equipment is properly maintained and you're shown how to keep it that way.

Many people think training is about some having some time served master at your elbow imparting ancient skills and wisdom. Yes, that's partly true, but the real benefit is there are rigid barriers in place that protect you from your own vacillations, procrastinations, dithering, laziness, greed, fear, and all the other human failings that afflict us all!

Hello,

I agree with this totally. And I think I might be one of the few here who is almost totally self taught. Yes, I did attend the College of the Redwoods, but it was after I had been professional for several years. I went to find out if I was as good as I had hoped, as I had no real way of knowing, being in my own little vacuum. Of course I went to meet Krenov, too, as it was one of the last opportunities to do so, he passed a few years later. Luckily, I wasn't wide of the mark with my own self teaching, and quite often the tutors would either pass by me to others in more need of assistance of just chat about wood, England, where is nice to visit etc. The reason I think some training is useful, comes from the fact that teaching yourself, as Custard says, leads down all kinds of blind alleys. I found out what tools were truly useful only after wasting tons of money on ones that were less useful and truly useless. That costs money, which I didn't have, training would have largely prevented. As it happened, I didn't have the money to take training either, hence my DIY approach, and I had already developed some skill as a boy, helping my dad who always made things and had tools around.

Then there are the skills which just seem to elude you, no matter what. I didn't have the internet to source information from, like now, I had books and magazines. It was easy to get stuck on something that now seems simple. A cursery glance from a craftsman and a few words often solves a problem that might take weeks of trial and error, in solitude in the shed. Perhaps the solution may never completely occur to a self learner. If there are funds available to take training it makes sense to me to use some of it, and some on any useful tools that you find when doing so. I would not spend it all on training and have a shortfall of equipment, neither would I spend it all on tools, and have a skill shortage. It is about balance.

That said, if you really want the challenge of teaching yourself and don't have an expectation of a guarantee of excellence, then buy some tools and lots of wood! I enjoyed teaching myself, but I was young and had the 'need' to make fine things like I saw in the design books. I don't think I would have the drive to push on like I did then.

No, I wouldn't recommend the college of the Redwoods as a source of training if you want to be a professional.

Mike.

 

[Ttrees]

Custard, You always mention training when a topic like this comes up
I could be described as unwilling to spend my money on timber and skills, and one could say I've nothing to show for it either
But I'd like to think, I have the skills to do what I have in store for me for the next good while ...
And in some folks opinion, I have a good quanity of nice timber ( all salvaged )

I must say I do spend a lot of time on this forum and others, but even if I did not, and just read the thread I linked,
and watched those videos....
I think I would have a good grasp on the basics....ie, getting a board S6S sufraced six sides.

I'm not saying I know how to make a chair like those you've shown before, but I think some folk will be making videos on the subject...
hopefully soon !
I understand lots of folks make videos on the basics, and cater to the novices only, but I think this will change.
If it doesn't, I guess there are folks who will be making videos on all specialist topics, before long
( Just remembeered I have paid for skills before on luthier DVD's ) (homer)

Basically, I challange anyone to watch a David Charlesworth DVD and not be absolutly crystal clear about the procedures
that will be replicated.
His woodworking videos explain proceedures in such a precice absolute way, that's far better than any demonstration I've ever seen or heard....
and his methods are 110 percent reliable to boot.
He really goes to the trouble scripting the DVD's, and uses the english language to its best, describing things to such detail...no one I've seen comes close.

And I can watch them again, and again..
Beats the pants of going crosseyed from fatigue, learning from someone who I just didn't strike a chord with

I'd save the classes for later, because of all the great information freely available on Youtube and here.
That's my 2 cents

Interested to see the counter agrument from someone who has watched a DC DVD

Tom

 

[MikeG.]

........There are four things a woodworker needs, tools, a space to work, skills, and decent timber......

Time. You forgot time. So many people are in a rush these days.

 

[custard]

........There are four things a woodworker needs, tools, a space to work, skills, and decent timber......

Time. You forgot time. So many people are in a rush these days.

You know, you're absolutely right.

I'm increasingly questioning if woodworking really is an appropriate hobby for many people, and time is an important part of that.

Woodworking eats up huge chunks of time. Even fairly modest furniture projects can require fifty or a hundred hours, more if you're only dipping in and out. And developing even the basic skills to tackle those modest projects also takes far more time than most people realise. I once trained under an antique restorer and cabinet maker called Bruce Luckhurst, who was famous for his pithy expressions. If he met someone who was looking for time saving short cuts he'd advise them to pack in cabinet making and take up woodturning! He had a point, with turning you can pop into your shed and emerge a few hours later with a bowl. With furniture making you pop into your shed and a few hours later you've taken a minute step along what can feel like a never ending road towards finishing a project.

Instant gratification it ain't!

 

[custard]

Basically, I challange anyone to watch a David Charlesworth DVD and not be absolutly crystal clear about the procedures

I've only seen a few but I agree, they're excellent.

But here's the thing, imagine you contacted one hundred people who had bought and watched David's excellent video on secret mitre dovetails, and you then asked if they'd actually gone on to complete a secret mitre dovetail to a decent standard. How many could answer yes? Ten perhaps, less, who knows?

But if you asked one hundred people who had personally attended a David Charlesworth course on making a secret mitre dovetail how many had actually completed one, well the answer would be all of them.

And that's where face to face training really scores, it pretty much guarantees that good intentions get translated into concrete achievements.

 

[MikeG.]

.......You know, you're absolutely right.

I'm increasingly questioning if woodworking really is an appropriate hobby for many people, and time is an important part of that.

Woodworking eats up huge chunks of time. Even fairly modest furniture projects can require fifty or a hundred hours.........
Instant gratification it ain't!

To reinforce two points you've made recently in one photo.....

This desk took me 100 hours 20 or 30 years ago. Well, I made three of them and together they took me 300 hours. One alone would probably have taken 150 to 180 hours, just using hand tools and a router:

Crappy photo because it was in a tiny room, and I couldn't get any further away from it.

 

[Mr T]

As a course provider myself I'm going to keep amow profile on this thread, however I would say this. Woodwork is a very physical activity that engages all the senses, the feel of a surface planed by a really sharp plane, the sound (and smell) of a router under stress, the exact amount of pressure required when turning the edge of a scraper etc etc. This is what books, videos and Youtube cannot convey but actually being there can.

That's it.

Here's another Luckhurst gem Custard "In furniture making you always get found out".

Chris

 

[custard]

This desk took me 100 hours 20 or 30 years ago. Well, I made three of them and together they took me 300 hours. One alone would probably have taken 150 to 180 hours, just using hand tools and a router:

You must go like the clappers, if I were quoting for that I'd assume 250 hours for one using all the machinery known to man, and that would be in the white with the skiver extra!