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By Helvetica
#1336518
I'm making doors for a sideboard - cherry with wenge handles. Trying to allow for seasonal movement but hide the expansion gaps. My idea is to make a stile & rail panel that functions like breadboard ends. Here is what I mean: the handle is deeper than the rest of the door, so the centre panel can expand into the handle. The frame is standard stile & rail, but the right-hand rail is actually the handle. I will post a sketchup file if anyone cares to look, and attach a few images of the sketchup. It's tricky to describe and even harder to draw. Basically wondering is it likely to work or has it been done successfully before.

The door will be 19mm thick (to work with Blum hardware). The handle is also 19mm thick, and 32mm wide where it meets the panel. It has a wider area for a grip.

My house has a thermostat set at 19 degrees all year round in this room. The house is well insulated. The room has large south facing windows and gets lots of light (the cherry has darkened beautifully in no time). Seasonal humidity changes shouldn't be very large. I have made a 5 foot wide mahogany table that hasn't moved more than a millimetre, then again it is mahogany. Thanks for any advice.

disappearing-breadboard.jpg
door design

disappearing-breadboard-3.jpg
handle / frame joint

disappearing-breadboard.jpg
door design

disappearing-breadboard.jpg
door design
Attachments
disappearing-breadboard-4.jpg
close up of where frame meets panel, without handle
disappearing-breadboard-2.jpg
close up of inside of handle
Last edited by Helvetica on 15 Feb 2020, 17:19, edited 1 time in total.
By Mrs C
#1336645
Helvetica wrote:Because panels have gaps, and I don’t want gaps. Is that ok?


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You possibly need to look at using tongue and grove.

I have found that storing wood in the same humidity as where the end product will eventually live before you start working on it really helps preventing movement. Mine lives under the stairs for a while!

The other option if your panels are flat is to use veneered mdf, in which case the problem goes away altogether.
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By MikeG.
#1336647
I don't even understand that. Expansion in panels is taken up within the groove the panels sit in. They are loose fitted into channels in the edge of the stiles and rails, and can float about to their hearts content. Whatever style of panel you want (flat, raised, t&g, carved, latticework...whatever) there are no gaps, and no movement issues. Just make up orthodox panels and glue your handles to the outer edge of the stiles. I'm honestly not seeing the issue here.
By Mrs C
#1336649
I am assuming the problem is that the panels themselves are made of several vertical pieces. If the pieces shrink you get gaps unless you ether glue them together or use tongue and grove. The complete panel itself can then float between the styles.
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By Helvetica
#1336670
The panel shrinks and expands inside the frame. So where the panel meets the frame you get a gap (or a routed detail to hide the gap). Unless the panel is flat and sits lower than the frame. I want the frame and panel to be flat, with no gaps, and no decoration.

If I just glue it together with no expansion the boards will cup.


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By Helvetica
#1336671
Mrs C wrote:You possibly need to look at using tongue and grove.

I have found that storing wood in the same humidity as where the end product will eventually live before you start working on it really helps preventing movement. Mine lives under the stairs for a while!


So the inside panel will be tongue and grooved, with the growth rings alternating to minimise cupping.

The Cherry has been in the room since summer. I thicknessed them to rough size a few weeks ago. When I work on the board in the shed, I bring them back to the house when I’m done. But they will still cup a little.

The dividing panels separating the shelves are tongue and groove panels, and the centre will raise 1mm after being planted dead flat. I’m trying to avoid this warping in the doors.

My understanding of a frame and panel is that the panel is not glued to the frame, or maybe glued to one side to restrict movement in one direction. If it was all glued up would it not break the frame open when it expands?


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By That would work
#1336672
What you are saying is that you want the panel to be flush with the front faces of the stiles and rails. ?
If this is the case then you would need something like a bead and butt principal.
So the movement across the grain is disguised in the bead against the stiles. The end grain of the panels is rebated to fit in the grooves in the rails.
By That would work
#1336675
It's not unusual to have a panel set flush in a frame. Hence the bead and butt type methods.
I think the OP wanted to have a flush panel with no movement provision around the panel edge. (What you refer to as gaps?)
Not really possible with a solid panel.
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By Helvetica
#1336690
That would work wrote:It's not unusual to have a panel set flush in a frame. Hence the bead and butt type methods.
I think the OP wanted to have a flush panel with no movement provision around the panel edge. (What you refer to as gaps?)
Not really possible with a solid panel.


This sounds interesting. Is it different to breadboard ends? Is it where you have a backing board with a sliding dovetail or something to keep it straight but allow for expansion?

Yes I am after a flush panel and frame, but I thought the movement could be allowed for in the handle. You would have to look at my attached drawings to see why I think this would work. Cheers


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