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By Steve Maskery
#1333639
You are all getting me worried now - which, if I am wrong, is a good thing.


AJB Temple wrote:I have often wondered why early designs of small single column tables adopted the bird cage pattern - perhaps it was to deal with tilting forces between the column and the brace.


Have you got a picture, please?
Last edited by Steve Maskery on 31 Jan 2020, 09:34, edited 1 time in total.
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By Jacob
#1333640
If i really wanted :roll: to do a big heavy table based on the delicate little Shaker 3 legged round table I'd simply drop the board on to two 3 legged similar, and get rid of the clumsy stretcher. You'd have 6 legs but a more logical and stable structure. You'd still need to think about the top joint, possible metal, or 3 brackets to match the three legs?
I've seen similar in principle, where a heavy top is rested on two saw-horse type of thing, each with three legs and inherently stable.
By That would work
#1333645
Look at this 'Hancock' bench. A simple shaker piece which use braces under the seat, going in a different direction true, but something similar would fit in to the style of your table.
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By Steve Maskery
#1333648
That would work wrote:Look at this 'Hancock' bench. A simple shaker piece which use braces under the seat, going in a different direction true, but something similar would fit in to the style of your table.


The trouble with that is that I really don't like it.

I might have to re-think this :(
By AJB Temple
#1333652
Hi Steve, Annoyingly the iPhone picture of the best image is too large (this forum is a bit archaic in picture handling) but the picture attached is from two birdcage tables circa 1700. These from my bible on oak furniture: Oak Furniture - The British Tradition by Vincent Chinnery.

There are a number of ways used by the old craftsmen to joint tables to legs. However most dining tables (refectory or one of the multitude of names) had more substantial leg structures. It is worth remembering that back in medieval times is was common for house staff to sleep both on and under tables, hence structure and balance was critical. My medieval refectory table is getting on for 4 inches thick on the top and the legs and braces are what one might call sturdy.
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By Steve Maskery
#1333657
Thank you.
The column I have drawn is 95mm diameter at the bottom, the dovetails can be anything up to 30mm long.

I have another design in my head. I might draw it up and see if floats my boat more.

That Moser table seemed sturdy enough. Those end structures were ex-2". 45mm I suppose.

The thing is, I don't really want a normal 4-legged table, I want something more interesting.
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By Jacob
#1333662
Talking of 3 legged saw horses table supports (well I was anyway) I first saw one in the Rijksmuseum in a dolls house (I think). Couldn't find a snap but found this instead, which I thought was interesting https://www.canvas.co.com/creations/2957
PS Talking of Amsterdam, just remembered (trying to ignore) today is Brexit day. :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9jEuHbB0GQ
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By AndyT
#1333689
Steve, I hope these might help with your thinking. Both shaker originals.

This table is 20 feet long but does give a precedent for more than one base unit.

IMG_20200131_101344_DRO.png


And this one is a bit more conventional

IMG_20200131_101402_DRO.png
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By Pete Maddex
#1333691
I am with the crowd here Steve, the joint between the top and legs isn't strong enough.

It needs to be T or Y shaped to spread the load.



Pete
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By Steve Maskery
#1333729
Well, when so many experienced people, whose opinions I (normally! :D ) respect tell me I'm wrong, I should listen.

So I've beefed it up at both ends, The leg is now 25mm taller at the dovetail end and the top rails are now 95mm deep, set as a bridle joint.

What do you think? Click to enlarge:

dining table 3.png
By Woody2Shoes
#1333741
AJB Temple wrote:Hi Steve, Annoyingly the iPhone picture of the best image is too large (this forum is a bit archaic in picture handling) but the picture attached is from two birdcage tables circa 1700. These from my bible on oak furniture: Oak Furniture - The British Tradition by Vincent Chinnery.

There are a number of ways used by the old craftsmen to joint tables to legs. However most dining tables (refectory or one of the multitude of names) had more substantial leg structures. It is worth remembering that back in medieval times is was common for house staff to sleep both on and under tables, hence structure and balance was critical. My medieval refectory table is getting on for 4 inches thick on the top and the legs and braces are what one might call sturdy.


I've always thought that the birdcage mechanism was to allow the table top to be rotated - a sort of 'lazy susan' idea when serving afternoon tea - as well as tilted (to save space when not being used to serve afternoon tea).

http://blog.thakehamfurniture.co.uk/201 ... ge-tables/

There's a good video of Roy Underhill making the sliding dovetails for a "Hancock Pedestal Table" which I think is the sort of design that might have influenced the designer of what influenced Steve (!) https://www.pbs.org/video/the-woodwrigh ... tal-table/

Here's a design (a bit chunky but could be refined) for a dining table which is essentially a pair these pedestals supporting one tabletop:

https://www.barkerandstonehouse.co.uk/d ... 797-91502/

Cheers, W2S
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By MikeG.
#1333744
Well that top is better Steve, certainly. I'm still sceptical about the legs. How about extending it downwards in an upside-down finial, and putting a strap around it, like a ferrule? That would have the duel benefit of getting the joint away from the end of the vertical post, and tying it together to resist the grain splitting if it came under pressure. I also just think it needs to be chunkier.

This leg design is something I would consider marginal, and if I were making it I would want to reassure myself by making a reasonable mock-up before embarking on the real thing. If that turns out OK, then crack on.

Edit....moving the stretcher away from the joints between the posts and the feet would improve the strength of the latter. If you added a third foot in its place you could eliminate the stretcher altogether, so long as you don't drag the table around.
By AJB Temple
#1333746
Well - the old original birdcage tables I have seen in real life have neither rotated nor tilted. That is not to say that they didn't at one time I suppose. They certainly were making rotating candle stands to go up and down on a screw at that time, and also more rudimentary candle and rush taper holders that could be adjusted for height.

For anyone who has the book, look at Figure 3.184 on page 297. Very high quality birdcage with four turned posts and arches, and an elaborate through centre post. Clearly not designed to tilt in that case.