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By shim20
#684714
most people say 10k? surely its possible to do it for less than that? ive got all the portable tools i need and a good mortiser, so as a bare minimum i would also need a saw bench, planer thicknesser, spindle, radial arm saw maybe, it would be joinery and furniture. so what other costs are involved? there's a few places around here on farms etc to rent quite cheap, so what else am i missing there's obviously other things im missing so what are they and how much are they lol?
any advice would be great thanks
User avatar
By Andycase
#684729
Assuming you are buying new, then a table saw £1200, Morticer £1000, Spindle Moulder £1000, Planer thicknesser £1200, Radial Arm £1500. Bandsaw? If you want to resaw your own timber then around £1500-2000. Bench? £1500. Domino or biscuit joiner? £300-800

So far we are up to approx £10k

If you dont have work already coming in then you will need funds for your first 1-2 months rent, electric, gas, council tax, water, insurance both public and premises. That alone could be 1-2k easy

Material? Have you got all the wood you need? Hardwood and softwood? Will be cheaper to buy in bulk and store it. Average £30-£40 per cubic foot depending on material.

Finishes? Waxes, oils, paints.
Consumables and tools? Sanding discs, drill bits, chisels, morticers, router bits, clamps (you can never have enough)

If you are buying new, surely 10k isnt enough, unless you dont plan to put away for the 1st couple of months as you already have paid work
User avatar
By Andycase
#684731
Sorry just re-read your post and you have a morticer

Replace your morticer with dust extraction..........big enough for all your machines plus your ducting etc. You arent going to want to sweep up every night when you want to go home - £1500-£2000

Also, what about the premises themselves? If you are doing this professionally then you will want big enough machines, which are going to require 3 phase - that might need putting in, or at least extra electrical sockets etc putting in. Doubt your landlord will do that for you. Unless the premises has already been a joinery shop?
Decent lighting is a must. Will you need to add any?

Phone line, internet, computer - unless you will do it all at home, including any computer design work
User avatar
By shim20
#684735
wouldnt be new the older stuff is better made i think, got a bench, wouldn't need a domino got a biscuit jointer.
so there would be rent and electric but no gas or water i could just take water in each day, why would i need public insurance it would just be me?. material i would buy as i go but yer might need abit for that, it would all be as bear minimum as possible just to get going, i may be living in a dream world and probably am?, just looking at my options
User avatar
By shim20
#684736
Andycase wrote:Sorry just re-read your post and you have a morticer

Replace your morticer with dust extraction..........big enough for all your machines plus your ducting etc. You arent going to want to sweep up every night when you want to go home - £1500-£2000

Also, what about the premises themselves? If you are doing this professionally then you will want big enough machines, which are going to require 3 phase - that might need putting in, or at least extra electrical sockets etc putting in. Doubt your landlord will do that for you. Unless the premises has already been a joinery shop?
Decent lighting is a must. Will you need to add any?

Phone line, internet, computer - unless you will do it all at home, including any computer design work


would be single phase as the machines can be easily used anywhere else, phone mobile to start with? that's all we have where i work at the moment it is the middle ages where i work but its amazing what can be done with abit of thought, thanks for your input
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By Andycase
#684739
public insurance? Could get away without it, but what if someone comes on your premises to view your work and has an accident? Or what if they commision you to do a piece, you dont do it in time, or you make a mistake (it happens) and they sue you or claim damages. Can happen.

If you are buying second hand, then yes, i think you could do it for 10k.
But as someone who has been heavily involved in running a business and spending out on expansion, allow easily 10-20% for things you didnt think about like consumables.
Then put away for mistakes and problems.
Would be horrible to get the shop up and running and hit a wall.

I went out recently to buy new bandsaw blades, decent sanding discs, a couple of router cutters and some other bits and bobs, and came back £200 worse off.
I dont even do it as a job, and i get large discount through work from tools suppliers etc

Its easily done and im a hobby user. Just imagine if youre doing it for a job.

With regards single phase, you will be limited by the power of your machines, but thats not to say you cant do it. I dont want to put you off as its exactly what i would love to do someday. But i like to think of everything.....which isnt always the best way, as you rarely jump in and do it. You will be running a shop while i will still be in a desk job!
User avatar
By shim20
#684742
Andycase wrote:public insurance? Could get away without it, but what if someone comes on your premises to view your work and has an accident? Or what if they commision you to do a piece, you dont do it in time, or you make a mistake (it happens) and they sue you or claim damages. Can happen.

If you are buying second hand, then yes, i think you could do it for 10k.
But as someone who has been heavily involved in running a business and spending out on expansion, allow easily 10-20% for things you didnt think about like consumables.
Then put away for mistakes and problems.
Would be horrible to get the shop up and running and hit a wall.

I went out recently to buy new bandsaw blades, decent sanding discs, a couple of router cutters and some other bits and bobs, and came back £200 worse off.
I dont even do it as a job, and i get large discount through work from tools suppliers etc

Its easily done and im a hobby user. Just imagine if youre doing it for a job.

With regards single phase, you will be limited by the power of your machines, but thats not to say you cant do it. I dont want to put you off as its exactly what i would love to do someday. But i like to think of everything.....which isnt always the best way, as you rarely jump in and do it. You will be running a shop while i will still be in a desk job!


i would take the risk the the public insurance you have to take risks in life sometimes. thanks for your time its all been taken on board, and you made me aware of some very valid points.
By Stormer1940
#684752
Insurance is costing me nearly £1000 and the guy at the insurance brokers told me today that the insurance company wanted to up the excess from £250 (My insurance when I didn't have the shop) to £1000! I told them to sod off.

They want an alarm fitted which I do but I also have to pay out to have it maintained... Lucky I got away with not having the alarm monitored by Red Care.
By Stormer1940
#684754
Lol... Then the advertising... The list goes on.... This is why I do sitework and have a workshop as well... I was having to turn work away because I didn't have the premises but now do. Startrite 352 bandsaw, Spindle Moulder, Cooksley 3Phase Mortiser, Wadkin rip/ panel saw. Startrite P/T. I have a Dewalt 717xps sliding compound mitre saw which I use for a crosscut as well.

would be single phase as the machines can be easily used anywhere else
Have you tried lumping a 300kg single phase spindle moulder around I know you can get smaller but be aware they still weigh in... Also the single phase sockets tend to look like this Image
Last edited by Stormer1940 on 09 May 2012, 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By ProShop
#684755
IMHO I would think seriously again at Not taking on public liability insurance, that's a huge mistake.
You can get PLi included in your premises insurance. (You are going to Insure the premises aren't you ?).
By Rob Platt
#684761
if you ve got a load of hand tools. then a decent table saw decent bench and wait to see what your customers want and if you need to buy something then look at its cost and see if you really need it. I ve done most of my work with a contractors table saw i bought over thirty years ago and modified to my needs. and six routers most of which i bought second hand the rest was hand operated power tools and the usual hand tools depends on what youre going to be making
HTH
all the best
rob
User avatar
By Lons
#684771
Hi Shim
You've made no mention of a vehicle so unless you already have a van, which is surely an essential if you're doing joinery and furniture, it's going to cost a substantial chunk of your 10k budget.
I run a business though joinery is only part of it and I think it's difficult to start up from scratch for 10k. Neither do I think it's prudent to spend that unless you find your customer base first and ideally start the business part time whilst earning a salary elsewhere. Make the "jump" when you feel the gamble has decent odds.
I'll probably be shot down in flames but it's my experience and honest opinion.

IMO public liability is absolutely essential. I knew an electrician, sole trader with a small one man business. he left a step ladder on a landing whilst he was working and the old dear of the household fell over it and down the stairs. A genuine accident but she was hospitalised for months and was never able to walk again without a stick. he was held to be responsible and I don't know how much the insurance company paid out but I guarantee it was 6 figures. It would have ruined him and there but by the grace of god go many of us! never had reason to call on mine but it helps me sleep soundly!

I would suggest that the first and most important tool to be used has to be market research. There's a very good reason why the majoprity of business failures happen in the first 12 months!

Bob
By Bradshaw Joinery
#684824
hi, i have done exactly what your proposing, here is my view on a few points,
Have a work with some llocal builders/carpenters, ask where they get there joinery, ring a few up out of the local rag, where do they go, how often, rough price, are they happy, would they try someone new. trade is where alot of return work will come in, privae is good when youve established a good name.


cost of the machines will be relative, if your renting a shop and slowly building the machinery up, should find better value machinery, however buying all at once to start straight away might end up being a compromise on price or what your getting. Plus, i have found tools spares and accesories for machines often cost alot more than youd expect. stuff like new saw blades, my last one was £120 iirc, spindle tooling, a scribe set for the tenoner and equvalent for the spindle is around £150 off the shelf, custom knives are double if you want the limiters too..... then theres rebater, moulding block, cill cutter, glue jointer, groovers, planer will need spare blades, 2/3 sets? mortice chisels, cheap ones are £50 expensive up to £150-200 each. consumables, like sandpaper, belts, glue, screws, stains and paint all cost wonga. dulux primer is around £70 for 5 litres..... theres a lot of little things i havent listed. i think a better way to start is have a bit of a shop as suggested and work on fitting/site then slowly build the shop up.

dont want to put you off but its cost me probably £15k over three years to get my workshop to a condition of working profesionally from it full time. and i got some serious bargains.

2003 tesh tenonner - £1750
2002 sedgwick ta450 saw- £400
wadkin bao-s planer £150.
extractor - 400
spindle £1500
wadkin crosscut £150

as you can see the machinery in relation is cheap when you look at the overall figure. and i was always one ebay etc searching for my next machine bargain. i didnt go out and buy them when i needed them.
plus im rent free too.

to get a company in to do the 3 phase wiring was just over £3k