ray key modified gouge?

[nev]

at a tangent from drillbits post.... a bowl gouge is next on the shopping (birthday pressie) list, and of course there are a 1001 to choose from :?
so I am looking for my first bowl gouge, any suggestions as to which way to lean? it will be for er...bowls, boxes and anything else i can use it for, mostly between 2 and 8 inch dia.
i do like the sound of a Ray Key modified gouge (i know it is a spindle gouge) but according to the sales bumph sounds like it is just what i want, being useful for hollowing and shaping the outside. anyone have any experience of such a thing?

from http://www.henrytaylortools.co.uk/hss1.html

Used mainly for making boxes, from hard dense end grain material. Internal hollowing from the centre is made easy with short stubby 60/65° angle, this allows for a strong vibration free pivot cutting action, as the bevel can be rubbed for much of the time. For outside shaping the long side grind is used with the bevel rubbing , the tool is pulled along the material. Quality of surface obtained is the equivelent of a skew chisel, but is much better than a skew on duifficult woods. ""
This tool is also used for refined shaping of the outside of small bowls. Used correctly the bevel rubs with a slicing cut action and leaves a very clean tool finish, no scraping is required. end grain hollowing on softer woods and larger work is best done with the 1/2" gouge. The end / side cutting scraper is made from a 3/4" square end scraper. This is used to true up gouge ripples in the base of flat bottomed boxes and to true up the side walls. The 1/2" skew is one that has a much longer angle than normal, it is used more like a sheer scraper is used for the truing up of gouge ripples in the base of soft curved boxes, goblets, egg cups etc. The modified straight across the grind make it much easier to remove the nipple or pimple often foound in such items when the rounded end ones are used.

if the concensus is no to one of these, what to look for instead?

 

[Jonzjob]

I have to admit that unless it is a fairly large bowl, i.e. deep, I tend to use a spindle gouge and even then when they get deeper I use the 1/2" Woodcut spindle gouge I bought from the makers in NZ. Silly, but true but it was cheaper, especially the post, to get it from NZ than it was to get it from England! I also bought a spare tip too and if I could get through to the site I would post it, but it comes up as not available?

I use my bowl gouges for anything much bigger and I have one ground in a finger nail grind. Good to use, but I think that I am going to try the idea of putting a secondary grind on it to get a better cut in deep bowls.

 

[jumps]

I have to admit that unless it is a fairly large bowl, i.e. deep, I tend to use a spindle gouge and even then when they get deeper I use the 1/2" Woodcut spindle gouge I bought from the makers in NZ. Silly, but true but it was cheaper, especially the post, to get it from NZ than it was to get it from England! I also bought a spare tip too and if I could get through to the site I would post it, but it comes up as not available?
.

but this time it's not you - all the links I could find to Woodcut servers seem broke!

 

[Jonzjob]

Dey am the ones. I have the smaller and love it. I just got the non handled one 'cause I thought I may be able to handle doing a handle? I'm getting a bit confused here?

 

[CHJ]

Just realised had posted in wrong thread regarding tool use, must admit I have not found a need for anything special in the way of Bowl gouges, good robust 3/8-1/2" shaft and a couple of differing front bevel angles to allow easier working on the inside of bowls and a larger diameter one I use on the outside of larger rough turnings as I find the weight and rigidity takes a lot of effort out of holding it.

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi Nev

You are quite right that there are 1001 options. My suggestion would be to buy a standard 3/8" Bowl gouge (the Henry Taylor ones are good but so are most makes!) and learn to use it properly. A properly sharpened BG will make and shape bowl you could imagine and dispite what people say, you can manage with just one. You will need to experiment with grinds until you find the one you like best,personally I use a Henry Taylor 3/8" Superflute BG, ground to about 65deg with the heel of the bevel ground back, shortening the bevel by about half.

For hollowing boxes I stick to a spindle gouge.

HTH

Richard

 

[chrisbaker42]

My favourite tool at present is my Robert Sorby 1/2 inch bowl gouge, being Sorby is not the important part but being a bowl gouge is. The bowl gouge is a lot more sturdy and seems to give a lot more control when working a little further from the rest. It has a fingernail grind and I find I also use it for spindle work and particularly shaping the outside of large bowls. The second tool only for the inside of bowls is a large homemade tool which is a larger version of the sorby multi-tip hollowing tool using the full round tip from the sorby hollower, 20" long 15mm steel bar and home-turned handle (total cost £13 including new tip from Stiles & Bates). Long and strong certainly helps with bowls.

 

[drillbit]

Nev - you are a lot further along the learning curve than me, but to add my ha'porth, I have the Axminster bowl gouge which cost £11 and is probably the tool I have most success with. It's heavy, steady, and allows me to remove a lot of material quickly. It keeps its edge forever, and I also find it easier to use than a spindle gouge on the outside of the work (maybe because I find it easier to sharpen ).

The modified spindle gouges you have shown seem like they serve multiple functions, so ignore me if the bowl gouge alone would not be enough. But if you just want to hollow and shape, and went for the £11 bowl gouge, it might leave cash over to add another toy to the birthday pile?

 

[nev]

Nev - you are a lot further along the learning curve than me.....

maybe, but sometimes i think the curve is coming back on itself :mrgreen:
whichever i plump for i will be back at the beginning anyhow cos ive not used one before.

 

[duncanh]

Nev - you are a lot further along the learning curve than me, but to add my ha'porth, I have the Axminster bowl gouge which cost £11 and is probably the tool I have most success with. It's heavy, steady, and allows me to remove a lot of material quickly. It keeps its edge forever, and I also find it easier to use than a spindle gouge on the outside of the work (maybe because I find it easier to sharpen ).

The modified spindle gouges you have shown seem like they serve multiple functions, so ignore me if the bowl gouge alone would not be enough. But if you just want to hollow and shape, and went for the £11 bowl gouge, it might leave cash over to add another toy to the birthday pile?

I started with a set from Axminster that contained what is probably the same 'bowl gouge' that you mention. It doesn't bear much resemblence to any of the other bowl gouges which I've used or seen - it may have the length but the flute is nowhere near deep enough. This makes it difficult to get a decent swept back grind which is more useful in removing wood quickly..
I'd actually describe it as a long strong spindle gouge and that's how I tend to use it. Useful for boxes I suppose.
It is cheap though

Nev - you mention using the bowl gouge for boxes - you could perhaps use it on the outside but probably not the inside as it would probably be much too grabby with too large a cut. You'd want a spindle gouge for that.

HTH

Duncan

 

[CHJ]

I've had one of those shallow flute Bowl gouges since I started and indeed moved on in leaps and bounds when I learnt what a good bowl gouge looks and performs like. However it has given me good service over the years as a boring tool, as said it's stiff enough to reduce chatter and with just enough flute curve to be able to optimise the cut.

 

[johnny.t.]

I usually have a Henry Taylor 3/8 superflute with a swept back grind in my hand,it roughs everything, it turns bowls outside and in, the outside of forms and I have even been known to turn knobs I make for a client with it,a very versatile tool.
I too started out with that Axminster set but as has been said the gouge doesn't compare to a decent one in either shape of flute or steel.

 

[drillbit]

That'll teach me to open my mouth...and be a cheapskate.

The Axminster does have a shallow flute compared to the more expensive ones. But even then, there are some big differences between flute sizes, so what does the deeper flute do? Does it remove waste quicker, or provide more stability, or allow steeper curves? And is it a case of the deeper the flute the better?

 

[CHJ]

.....so what does the deeper flute do? ..

Gives you far more tool angle approach options, the biggest benefit, and to some extent a greater working edge length to use between sharpenings.

 

[nev]

cheers guys, slightly less confused now, i think :?
i have plenty of spindle gouges of varying sizes and do use them for some hollowing but i find the 'point' gets in the way when getting deeper into the hollow.
So looking for something with a different profile, it looks as though the HT superflute will suit my needs.

I usually have a Henry Taylor 3/8 superflute with a swept back grind in my hand,it roughs everything, it turns bowls outside and in, the outside of forms and I have even been known to turn knobs I make for a client with it,a very versatile tool.

sounds exactly what i want

Hi Nev
My suggestion would be to buy a standard 3/8" Bowl gouge ... You will need to experiment with grinds until you find the one you like best,personally I use a Henry Taylor 3/8" Superflute BG, ground to about 65deg with the heel of the bevel ground back, shortening the bevel by about half.

Richard

JohnnyT, is this a similar grind to what you prefer? because looking here...
http://www.peterchild.co.uk/osc/38-supe ... -p-79.html
and quote...

This 3/8" size is ... Ground "straight across" style. We will modify the grind for you if you ask nicely!

So do i take one as it comes 'out of the box' or request a different grind? i would prefer to have someone that knows what they're doing to grind it to shape initially so i know i am starting with a correctly ground tool (so if i start taking chunks out i know its me not the tool )
thanks guys

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi Nev

Buy a standard 3/8 Superflute and post it to me and I'll grind it to my prefered shape if you like. Honestly, for 90% of what you'll want to do it'll do just the job!!

Cheers

Richard

 

[johnny.t.]

Nev, This is a nice little article I grind my main gouge swept back like the one labelled E. Its a very versatile tool.

If they offer to do it for you tell them thats what you want.

 

[nev]

thanks Richard and Johnny, looks like i need two :shock: one ground straight the other ground well back. might be pushing it a bit for the birthday pressie, but xmas is not that far away
i think i'll get a straight across (A) first and then an 'E' at chrimbo
cheers guys =D>






dear Santa.... :ho2

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi Nev

Honestly mate, you really don't need several of essentially the same gouge. My grind is around 65 deg and ground back, although no where near as much as Jonny's. With this tool I can push cut, pull cut, scrape and shear cut with it. I can also make any shape of bowl I desire, from ogee to re-curve.

The offer is still open if you want to try out the grind I use.

Cheers

Richard

 

[johnny.t.]

Nev, I've not tried a grind like Richards so I can't say too much other than I wouldn't be keen to suggest you, as a newer turner remove any of the bevel as it is the part giving you support and reducing it will obviously give you less contact area when rubbing the bevel before you make a cut.The advantage of Richards grind is on the inside where you won't have the heel in the way going around the inner curve of a bowl which is good but you would IMHO feel better(safer) with a single bevel. (No offence RF)
If it were me I would get the profile like E in the article first and then get a straight across grind like A or even D.