Which way to use a grindstone wheel for chisels?

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

DO NOT RUN THE GRINDING WHEEL AWAY FROM THE BLADE!

Have I said that loudly enough?

There is the danger, unless you hold on really tightly, that the blade will be pulled out of your hands. At the least, the hollow will shift and be poorly formed. You will not experience this on a slow Tormek, or on a slow horizontal wheel (such as the Japanese wheel, above), but you will do so on a full speed bench grinder.

The purpose of the tool rest is to aid in holding the blade at the chosen angle. A wheel, moving into it, will not push it away. It is easier to hold the blade to a tool rest this way, than with the wheel turning away.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[owen]

While on the subject of grinding wheels, what's the best stoen to get for rough sharpening chisels? Are the pink ones best?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

CBN

This is my system: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... SetUp.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[AndyT]

I remember that back in the eighties a few excerpts of Ashley Iles autobiography appeared in the Woodworker.One issue focused on the work done by the grinders in the Sheffield cutlery industry and they didn't just grind bevels on one sort of implement,they did whatever came in the doors.He described the way they worked with wheels that rotated away from them and that they ran them really fast-I seem to remember twice the speed recommended and maybe somebody who has a copy of the book to hand could verify that.One of the reasons for running the wheels very fast was that like all the other independent specialists they were paid piecework and had every reason to get on with the work.My memory also tells me there was a mention of the records showing that few of them reached their 35th birthday.

You're quite right. From page 62:

Iles describes Union Wheel on Corporation Street, a long narrow place where dozens of grinders worked off a shared line shaft installation.

"Each grinder had in his shop one large wooden wheel, six feet diameter, which rotated all the time, and he connected various driving belts for grinding, or glazing (finishing after grinding) with a flick of the wrist. The belt connected the large driving wheel to the pulley on the grinding wheel. The wheels ran at an alarming speed. The Machinery Handbook of the day gave the safe working speeds then pointed out that Sheffield grinders worked at twice the speeds. "

There's a photo of "wet grinding using the 'buttocks board'" - which was a sort of suspended seat so the grinder could use his own weight on the work. From the pattern of sparks, the wheel would seem to be revolving away from the grinder.

Not techniques for the average home workshop!

Iles' book is a great read and I recommend it to anyone who can track down a copy at a reasonable price.

 

[D_W]

.....Most normal users of a chisel will sharpen it by pushing it along a stone....

Really? I don't. I want to pull the waste (the burr) off the edge. I'm wondering where you got the idea that most do it the other way. I'm sure you wouldn't be suggesting that those that do aren't normal.

Fair enough, I'm an imbecile. Please ignore what I say.

I think you're standing on a sidewalk just about to poll toilet paper users about "ball, wrap or fold" only to find out that things that you always assumed were nearly universal are not so much. Not a big deal - not sure why it's such a sensitive subject (the sharpening, not the toilet paper).

 

[D_W]

I remember that back in the eighties a few excerpts of Ashley Iles autobiography appeared in the Woodworker.One issue focused on the work done by the grinders in the Sheffield cutlery industry and they didn't just grind bevels on one sort of implement,they did whatever came in the doors.He described the way they worked with wheels that rotated away from them and that they ran them really fast-I seem to remember twice the speed recommended and maybe somebody who has a copy of the book to hand could verify that.One of the reasons for running the wheels very fast was that like all the other independent specialists they were paid piecework and had every reason to get on with the work.My memory also tells me there was a mention of the records showing that few of them reached their 35th birthday.

You're quite right. From page 62:

Iles describes Union Wheel on Corporation Street, a long narrow place where dozens of grinders worked off a shared line shaft installation.

"Each grinder had in his shop one large wooden wheel, six feet diameter, which rotated all the time, and he connected various driving belts for grinding, or glazing (finishing after grinding) with a flick of the wrist. The belt connected the large driving wheel to the pulley on the grinding wheel. The wheels ran at an alarming speed. The Machinery Handbook of the day gave the safe working speeds then pointed out that Sheffield grinders worked at twice the speeds. "

There's a photo of "wet grinding using the 'buttocks board'" - which was a sort of suspended seat so the grinder could use his own weight on the work. From the pattern of sparks, the wheel would seem to be revolving away from the grinder.

Not techniques for the average home workshop!

Iles' book is a great read and I recommend it to anyone who can track down a copy at a reasonable price.

I suspect much smaller silicon carbide wheels were a huge improvement in the standard of living! As I recall reading about cutlers elsewhere, if a wheel didn't break and kill them, inhalation of dust would.

https://youtu.be/Qr4VTCwEfko?t=415

Not totally related - but pretty well - the small wheel used here for a fellow working in an axe factory shows both a fixture (not the butt board, but a different bodyweight fixture to grind) and a discussion of the wheel size. Probably with dust collection for this guy, too.

Interestingly enough, for anyone who doesn't watch the beginning of this video, the shop master at this axe factory was in the terminal part of his employment because he could double his pay by moving south and getting a job in a factory at the bottom of union scale (they use the term pushing a broom, which was probably a literal statement).

 

[D_W]

nope, i was wrong - he is actually sitting on the fixture he's using to steady the axe.

 

[D_W]

.......Fair enough, I'm an imbecile. Please ignore what I say.

No you're not. And no, I won't. I'm actually curious as to whether pushing really is the norm.

Slower and harder stone users (like oilstones) generally will do both. Final results aren't affected much unless the subject is something delicate like a razor (sharpened leading into the stones to avoid creating a wire edge that could cause damage when it detaches).

Really doesn't matter - but used to be something you could easily survey on youtube when there were 10 sharpening videos and the people doing them appeared to be actual experienced amateurs and pros rather than wranglerstars.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I remember that back in the eighties a few excerpts of Ashley Iles autobiography appeared in the Woodworker.One issue focused on the work done by the grinders in the Sheffield cutlery industry and they didn't just grind bevels on one sort of implement,they did whatever came in the doors.He described the way they worked with wheels that rotated away from them and that they ran them really fast-I seem to remember twice the speed recommended and maybe somebody who has a copy of the book to hand could verify that.One of the reasons for running the wheels very fast was that like all the other independent specialists they were paid piecework and had every reason to get on with the work.My memory also tells me there was a mention of the records showing that few of them reached their 35th birthday.

Just to add a bit to Andy's excellent answer above, you're quite right about the Sheffield grinders having a short life, but in the 19th century. The wheels they used were originally natural stone - the millstone grit of the Peak District - but the dust these produced in grinding caused silicosis and pneumonocosis. There was a sanatorium for grinders too ill to work on the Derbyshire side of Sheffield (page 45).

However, some time around the turn of the 19th and 20th century, artificial grindstones became available, and the use of natural stones was made illegal. That solved the health problem. There are still to this day some abandoned quarries high on the Peak District slopes with finished natural wheels still lying in them; must have been a fair amount of work in each one, so they represent a big financial loss for the quarry owners.

Iles also writes that the wheels the grinders used were 42" diameter, 6 or 7" wide, cost £70 (this was the late 1940s, mind) and were usually bought on £2 weekly installments. He found he could buy 'Cokes' which were worn down wheels 18" diameter, from butcher's knife grinders, at 10 shillings, which he found ideal for the small work he was doing (page 53).

Mind you, this sort of grinding is a world away from tickling the ends of a few chisels and plane irons in even a pro woodworking workshop!

 

[AndyT]

This 1928 film is actually about table cutlery rather than edge tools, but I think the grinding shown at 5:30 in is similar to what Iles was writing about. On this smaller scale, the worker is using a flatstick to bear down on the knives he is grinding.

I would not want to spend my working life astride a 42" diameter lump of sandstone spinning round at any speed.

http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/c-j-co-cutlery

Robin Wood's film of axe grinding is also worth a watch.

https://youtu.be/DycX6g4CK6Y

 

[Vann]

I use a hand cranked grinder. That gives the option of rotating the stone either way - though I've only ever tried grinding the conventional way.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Vann, you are in a good position to test this: do it one way, then the other. Concentrate on what your "steady hand" does - how the pressure changes when holding the blade to the rest.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Please bear in mind that there's a world of difference between a hand-cranked grinder and a powered grinder, even a slow speed one. If something goes wrong on a hand-crank, the instinct is to stop instantly (usually as well as lifting the tool out of cut quickly). Powered grinders don't stop, even the slow-speed ones.

That's one of the big advantages of the hand-crank - it just takes all the tension and stress out of the job, especially for someone not familiar with off-hand powered grinders, which can be rather intimidating to some people.

As to how the tool is held on the rest, and the actions of the hand to hold and control it, that does depend on the design of rest. On the hand-crank, I prefer the simplest of rests, basically just a piece of bar against which the tool can rest - and no more. All metal removal is judged by eye, which is not too difficult with a bit of practice. Because metal removal is gentle compared to a 6" bench grinder, it's much easier to control.

Will be interesting to hear Vann's thoughts, though.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I altered my Creusen to run backwards. It's good for gouges with a Sorby 447 on a quite fine white wheel, but the profiler tends to lift - easily remedied by putting a collar under the stem - but the downside is that when using the table - as Derek said - the tool lifts, which makes a poor job. I shall put it back to run the other way - any gain on one side doesn't counter the loss on the other.

 

[Racers]

I use Waterstones so it’s pulling as you run the risk of digging in.

Harder stones and diamond stones it won’t be a problem.

Pete

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've used waterstones for the best part of forty years and it hadn't yet occurred to me to only pull the tool.

 

[D_W]

Any who ever perused tools from japan (before it closed) may remember that stu tierney tested a bunch of stones. He and I had friendly scuffles about sharpening fairly often since it's a matter of experimentation for me (nothing to do with woodworking).

I remember him saying (with compliant stones and a guide) that he couldn't see any reason not to use the forward and backward strokes at the same time - along the lines of, you're making the trip back and forth, why not use both parts of it to sharpen?

When I used waterstones (shaptons) I did that without any issue, but I have gouged softer stones mildly, especially when working the burr off of a lathe skew.