Electric vehicles

[RogerS]

One son of 46, well past the frequent emission stage.

OK.. so his total carbon footprint over his lifetime is infinitely higher than our offspring since we made a conscious decision not to have any children.

So you know where you can shove your holier-than-thou, smug, virtue-signalling post.

 

[beech1948]

I must say I am quite disturbed by the attitude of motorists who will not consider anything other than their own convenience, and also by the attitude of employers who will not consider any alternatives to their staff driving huge mileages to do their jobs.[/quote]

I don't get annoyed by many here as there is usually little point in getting angry BUT this statement has done it.

" I must say I am quite disturbed by the attitude of motorists who will not consider anything other than their own convenience"
Why. Motoring is purely about personal convenience and in the course of whatever is convenient getting stuff done. How far is your supermarket, your hardware store etc etc. Remove private transport and shops will need to multiply like rabbits in every locale. A silly and petulant statement.

"and also by the attitude of employers who will not consider any alternatives to their staff driving huge mileages to do their jobs."

Why.? As an owner and director of my small company (48 staff) our clients are located in Edinburgh, Preston, Lancaster, Blackpool, Bristol, Gloucester etc etc LOndon X20 and every where in between. We sell and install/maintain AI software for banks and insurance companies. There are only 48 of us so what model of dispersion do I adopt for my company. Option 1:: 12 of us drive way over 18,000 miles a year. Option 2:: I set up at great expense say 3 offices around the country with 2 to 3 people at each but deprive them of daily meaningful contact with the development staff of 31 who are static in there Crowthorne, Berkshire base. Option 3:: I move development out to say 3 offices and we struggles over communications even if easy video conferencing were available it lacks too much of the unspoken communication that is very very necessary.

If the first remark was silly then this comment on the attitude of employers is downright impractical rubbish.

I am not in any way against EVs, I am growing to be against quite a few of the impractical people who chat about them though. I like many other people in business are watching EVs with an eagle eye and trying to see when they might become VIABLE for us. The issues are as follows:-

1) Tesla is too expensive and lacks financial Government support via less tax.
2) Leaf, Golf e and those like them with an 120 mile range when warm and 80 mile range when cold are simply toys and not a real choice and they cost a fortune. You Toy EV owners should try doing Crowthorne-Glasgow-Blackpool-Crowthorne in just under 3 days. A round trip of about 1300 miles which would have about 13 charging stops of at least 45/60 minutes of unproductive time to get just an 80% charge.
3) Maybe the future model will be that customers pay us all support and mileage rather than the % of the contract value they do at present.

Thoroughly frustrated with the author of this missive. I'm getting in my ICE car, with a 895 mile range and getting its 2 tons of weight upto Norwich tonight. I wonder how much carbon dioxide it will spew out given that this particular customer has refused our offers of training, lacks there own staff to maintain their software and will not train any of their multitudes of contract staff. There is a problem caused by an old fashioned customer, who will not invest to cut their support costs because they are too profitable. So the issue is not just my carbon spewing huge juggernaught diesel but really the lack of professionalism in a customers management.

I think if I see a Toy EV on the road I will run it over and add to the roadkill. Just joking of course.

 

[Lons]

Oh and my car insurance pays for towing to the nearest charge point if I am stranded! So I am quite happy to be a guinea pig and also to contribute a little to clean air and carbon reduction.

Interesting about the insurance I hadn't thought of that but I wouldn't want to be waiting the hour or so it takes recovery services to actually get to you.

I must say I am quite disturbed by the attitude of motorists who will not consider anything other than their own convenience

We all consider a car as convenience otherwise we wouldn't own one in the first place surely and that has to be the reason you previously had that MB estate Keith or you wouldn't have bought a car capable of carrying a wardrobe. ( that was a great car I remember when we loaded that morticer into it and in excellent condition) and if you had wanted to be a guinea pig you would perhaps have swapped years ago.

the attitude of employers who will not consider any alternatives to their staff driving huge mileages to do their jobs.

Can't agree we you there Keith.
Not all businesses can operate just via telephone or the internet or can allow their staff to work from home. In my pals case he gets repeat orders by 'phone and email but without the face to face contact by his reps with customers several things would happen. He would get very few new accounts, would lose many existing ones to more aggressive competitors, would never get any new products off the ground. The result of all that would be loss of his business and the livelihood of his 28 staff who rely on him to pay their wages. Having spent much of my working life managing sales environments I know that to be the case!
He tried to be progressive by leasing a Prius, it didn't work for his situation though it won't stop him trying again when the situation has changed.

It's great that you could change your huge car for a small EV and can make it work for you but unfortunately in my case I often still pull a large heavy twin axle trailer and I often need a large capacity car. I'm not against EVs in any way just not for me at the minute and I seriously doubt the finances stack up for me covering less than 6000 miles a year and changing at a max of 2 - 3 years. Hopefully it will in due cours or my requirements change.

In my wife'as case her Mini is now 3. 1/2 years old and covered less than 16000 miles. For much of last year she needed at the drop of a hat to dash across to her mother who has dementia, often in the middle of the night and several times included a lengthy trip to hospital, no way could she have coped with the thought of either running out of power or delay at a charging point with her mother in distress. Thankfully she's in care now so it's less of an issue.

Our low mileage using up to date ICE engines should not be the first priority imo as it's the commercial vehicles and old petrol / diesel cars often poorly maintained which pump out the most noxious stuff. Unfortunately the owners of those cars are usually the ones who can least afford to pay exorbitant EV prices.

PS
I sincerely hope this thread doesn't become an angry one as it's an important subject to all of us

 

[Bodgers]

I must say I am quite disturbed by the attitude of motorists who will not consider anything other than their own convenience, and also by the attitude of employers who will not consider any alternatives to their staff driving huge mileages to do their jobs.

I don't get annoyed by many here as there is usually little point in getting angry BUT this statement has done it.

" I must say I am quite disturbed by the attitude of motorists who will not consider anything other than their own convenience"
Why. Motoring is purely about personal convenience and in the course of whatever is convenient getting stuff done. How far is your supermarket, your hardware store etc etc. Remove private transport and shops will need to multiply like rabbits in every locale. A silly and petulant statement.

"and also by the attitude of employers who will not consider any alternatives to their staff driving huge mileages to do their jobs."

Why.? As an owner and director of my small company (48 staff) our clients are located in Edinburgh, Preston, Lancaster, Blackpool, Bristol, Gloucester etc etc LOndon X20 and every where in between. We sell and install/maintain AI software for banks and insurance companies. There are only 48 of us so what model of dispersion do I adopt for my company. Option 1:: 12 of us drive way over 18,000 miles a year. Option 2:: I set up at great expense say 3 offices around the country with 2 to 3 people at each but deprive them of daily meaningful contact with the development staff of 31 who are static in there Crowthorne, Berkshire base. Option 3:: I move development out to say 3 offices and we struggles over communications even if easy video conferencing were available it lacks too much of the unspoken communication that is very very necessary.

If the first remark was silly then this comment on the attitude of employers is downright impractical rubbish.

I am not in any way against EVs, I am growing to be against quite a few of the impractical people who chat about them though. I like many other people in business are watching EVs with an eagle eye and trying to see when they might become VIABLE for us. The issues are as follows:-

1) Tesla is too expensive and lacks financial Government support via less tax.
2) Leaf, Golf e and those like them with an 120 mile range when warm and 80 mile range when cold are simply toys and not a real choice and they cost a fortune. You Toy EV owners should try doing Crowthorne-Glasgow-Blackpool-Crowthorne in just under 3 days. A round trip of about 1300 miles which would have about 13 charging stops of at least 45/60 minutes of unproductive time to get just an 80% charge.
3) Maybe the future model will be that customers pay us all support and mileage rather than the % of the contract value they do at present.

Thoroughly frustrated with the author of this missive. I'm getting in my ICE car, with a 895 mile range and getting its 2 tons of weight upto Norwich tonight. I wonder how much carbon dioxide it will spew out given that this particular customer has refused our offers of training, lacks there own staff to maintain their software and will not train any of their multitudes of contract staff. There is a problem caused by an old fashioned customer, who will not invest to cut their support costs because they are too profitable. So the issue is not just my carbon spewing huge juggernaught diesel but really the lack of professionalism in a customers management.

I think if I see a Toy EV on the road I will run it over and add to the roadkill. Just joking of course.

It was sort of making sense, until you gave your real opinion in the last sentence.

Your car choices seem a bit selective. Crowthorne to Nottingham is what, 150 miles? Hyundai Ioniq would make that without any stop. The Leaf 40kwh might, the 60kwh would definitely. Lots of other choices would to (Zoe, Kia Soul, Hyundai Kona etc.)

200 miles plus range is becoming the norm now for new EVs coming out, that will only increase.

For most people averaging 10k miles a year, averaging 30 miles a day EVs already make sense. For your use cases you just have to spend more money to get the range at the moment.

 

[flying haggis]

Oh and my car insurance pays for towing to the nearest charge point if I am stranded! So I am quite happy to be a guinea pig and also to contribute a little to clean air and carbon reduction.

if you run out of fuel on a motorway you can get done for "driving without due care and attention so I assume the same will apply to EV owners who try the journey and fail

 

[flying haggis]

Some friends and I discussed the idea of towing a small petrol or diesel generator trailer on long journeys to extend the range of an electric vehicle. The reasoning is that many people only occasionally do long journeys so there is no need to lug the generator around most of the time, and the generator (unlike a normal car's engine) could always run at its most efficient rpm.

Now I see someone has actually tried that and concluded it is better to tow extra batteries, renting the trailers and changing them when a charge is required. Clicky

I suppose if you are driving past these rental sites anyway it may work, and it could be a nice little franchise operation at motorway services. For something only used occasionally a rental option probably makes a lot of sense, compared to everyone buying their own trailer. I think though that many people would prefer the flexibility of a generator, or possibly a "hybrid trailer".

but newer motorists dont have a licence that allows them to tow a trailer

 

[Trainee neophyte]

It was sort of making sense, until you gave your real opinion in the last sentence.

Your car choices seem a bit selective. Crowthorne to Nottingham is what, 150 miles? Hyundai Ioniq would make that without any stop. The Leaf 40kwh might, the 60kwh would definitely. Lots of other choices would to (Zoe, Kia Soul, Hyundai Kona etc.)

200 miles plus range is becoming the norm now for new EVs coming out, that will only increase.

For most people averaging 10k miles a year, averaging 30 miles a day EVs already make sense. For your use cases you just have to spend more money to get the range at the moment.

The trip to be considered was "Crowthorne-Glasgow-Blackpool-Crowthorne in just under 3 days". Would your even more expensive option still work?

Once fleet managers work out that EVs will be cheaper to run than petrol cars, they will make the change, but until then, they won't. It looks like fossil fuel will be getting cheaper before it gets more expensive, so there may be a delay in the changeover.

 

[Trevanion]

but newer motorists dont have a licence that allows them to tow a trailer

Sort of yes, sort of no.

If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

That's quite a bit of leeway really, I can legally drive the Jeep with the 7x5 trailer with a quarter tonne load without a trailer licence.

 

[Lons]

If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg[/i]

That's quite a bit of leeway really, I can legally drive the Jeep with the 7x5 trailer with a quarter tonne load without a trailer licence.

I would be careful with those figures as they can be interpreted differently Trevanion.
MAM is as you say " maximum authorised mass" and is set by the manufacturers of the vehicle which if taken literally by the police if they stop you can mean you're driving over the limit. That's why years ago trailers and caravans were forced to plate them, originally as GVW. The unladen weight or amount of load is largely irrelevant except to calculate how much load you can carry.

Doesn't apply to me as I have a class C licence but as an example my car weighs almost 2000 kg, my trailer empty weighs 500 kg and has a MAM of 2500 kg. If your licence allows you a combined weight of 3500 kg then you would think towing it empty is ok but that's not what the DVLA states so if pulled over they would look at the MAM on both car and trailer added together which in the above case is 4500 kg and if being picky could prosecute the driver who could be fined up to £9k / 9 points on licence and have his insurance invalidated.

The DVLA are at fault as it's not clear and I haven't heard of any prosecutions but were there to be an accident the consequences could be horrific.

 

[Trevanion]

The DVLA are at fault as it's not clear and I haven't heard of any prosecutions but were there to be an accident the consequences could be horrific.

They do need to make it much clearer, but I suspect it's intentionally vague. In an ideal world I just need to to the test

 

[Lons]

The DVLA are at fault as it's not clear and I haven't heard of any prosecutions but were there to be an accident the consequences could be horrific.

They do need to make it much clearer, but I suspect it's intentionally vague. In an ideal world I just need to to the test

I checked all this out a couple of years ago Trev as my son can't tow my trailer for exactly that reason, I also have an acquaintance who is a retired traffic officer and he confirmed it but said the only time he ever pulled one over was if the lights weren't working, number plate was wrong and it looked dangerous or dodgy.

I have to take a medical every 3 years to keep my "C" category as I'm now 70 but I need it for the trailer and our motorhome which is over the 3500 kg limit.

 

[RogerS]

My apologies to Musicman and the rest of you for my intemperate response.

Guess all this wretched flat business is starting to get to me. Won't happen again.

 

[AJB Temple]

Good post Roger S. This has been a courteous thread and the apology put it back on track.

I wasn't aware of the trailer rules. Will have to look that up. I have an HGV licence as I used to drive big horse boxes and had to take a special test some years ago, but they were not articulated.

 

[Geoff_S]

I must say I am quite disturbed by the attitude of motorists who will not consider anything other than their own convenience, and also by the attitude of employers who will not consider any alternatives to their staff driving huge mileages to do their jobs.

I don't get annoyed by many here as there is usually little point in getting angry BUT this statement has done it.

" I must say I am quite disturbed by the attitude of motorists who will not consider anything other than their own convenience"
Why. Motoring is purely about personal convenience and in the course of whatever is convenient getting stuff done. How far is your supermarket, your hardware store etc etc. Remove private transport and shops will need to multiply like rabbits in every locale. A silly and petulant statement.

"and also by the attitude of employers who will not consider any alternatives to their staff driving huge mileages to do their jobs."

Why.? As an owner and director of my small company (48 staff) our clients are located in Edinburgh, Preston, Lancaster, Blackpool, Bristol, Gloucester etc etc LOndon X20 and every where in between. We sell and install/maintain AI software for banks and insurance companies. There are only 48 of us so what model of dispersion do I adopt for my company. Option 1:: 12 of us drive way over 18,000 miles a year. Option 2:: I set up at great expense say 3 offices around the country with 2 to 3 people at each but deprive them of daily meaningful contact with the development staff of 31 who are static in there Crowthorne, Berkshire base. Option 3:: I move development out to say 3 offices and we struggles over communications even if easy video conferencing were available it lacks too much of the unspoken communication that is very very necessary.

If the first remark was silly then this comment on the attitude of employers is downright impractical rubbish.

I am not in any way against EVs, I am growing to be against quite a few of the impractical people who chat about them though. I like many other people in business are watching EVs with an eagle eye and trying to see when they might become VIABLE for us. The issues are as follows:-

1) Tesla is too expensive and lacks financial Government support via less tax.
2) Leaf, Golf e and those like them with an 120 mile range when warm and 80 mile range when cold are simply toys and not a real choice and they cost a fortune. You Toy EV owners should try doing Crowthorne-Glasgow-Blackpool-Crowthorne in just under 3 days. A round trip of about 1300 miles which would have about 13 charging stops of at least 45/60 minutes of unproductive time to get just an 80% charge.
3) Maybe the future model will be that customers pay us all support and mileage rather than the % of the contract value they do at present.

Thoroughly frustrated with the author of this missive. I'm getting in my ICE car, with a 895 mile range and getting its 2 tons of weight upto Norwich tonight. I wonder how much carbon dioxide it will spew out given that this particular customer has refused our offers of training, lacks there own staff to maintain their software and will not train any of their multitudes of contract staff. There is a problem caused by an old fashioned customer, who will not invest to cut their support costs because they are too profitable. So the issue is not just my carbon spewing huge juggernaught diesel but really the lack of professionalism in a customers management.

I think if I see a Toy EV on the road I will run it over and add to the roadkill. Just joking of course.

We did future model 3 back in the 90’s.
We charged 50% hourly rate for travel time and full fat mileage charge. Didn’t stop a single client from calling us in. My personal record was South London to Sandbach, arrive to be told they had changed their minds and then back home again. They paid as well only to ask me if I could do it all again a week later.

Anyway, what do you drive? I only ask because I’ve got an e Golf and need to watch out for you 8)

 

[MusicMan]

My apologies to Musicman and the rest of you for my intemperate response.

Guess all this wretched flat business is starting to get to me. Won't happen again.

Gladly accepted, Roger, and my apologies for getting under the skin of you and Beech1948 and anyone else who was (unintentionally) offended. Good luck with the flat, my son is going through the same process and it is mentally quite draining.

Lons, you are right, I did have the Mercedes estate for convenience and for my job when I was commuting 200 miles and even Teslas weren't available. Yes I did carry wardrobes in it a couple of times, as well as several Boley lathes, a Wadkin saw and numerous other items and it was indeed great to drive. And I use the mortice a lot, it's still going strong!

I reluctantly parted with the car last week after 17 years. Indeed I was not an early guinea pig, but had to admit that since my circumstances had changed since I was running part of a company in Durham and commuting from Warwick, I should start making up for my carbon excesses. Oh, and my job then involved several trips a year to the US, China etc so I have a lot to make up. My holier-than-thou attitude was as much to myself as to others.

The other motivation in my posts in this thread has been to show that EVs are perfectly practical for a large fraction of the population right now, and that those for whom it is a good fit should really look hard at them. I'm perfectly aware that for the rest of the population it isn't a good fit: flat or terrace house dwellers, those obliged to do long distance drives frequently, trailer haulers etc. I'm not getting at them, I'm aware that infrastructure problems, mainly related to charging station availability and grid development, need solving and these won't all be solved overnight. More of them have been solved or properly planned than many are aware, however (hence the comments by Bodgers and myself on "whatabouters"). And those who can use them now are starting the stock of cheaper secondhand cars for a few years time.

The basic reason is of course the need - enshrined in the UK law in response to the Paris agreement - to decarbonise our economy in a fixed, short time scale. Even this may not be enough to avert many consequences of climate change but it must be done, and if it is not started quite aggressively it won't happen in time. The government Committee on Climate Change (CCC - one can look up their reports) is absolutely clear that transport is one of the areas that needs decarburising and that a major shift towards BEVs is the best way to do this. This is because it moves the CO2 emissions from the vehicles into the power stations, which are already much lower carbon emitters than vehicles, and will progressively become more so. Obviously we start with the low hanging fruit (such as me), and expect to resolve the harder cases in a few years time as batteries and infrastructure develop. I am quite sure that they will.

I've had some pushback from saying that employers should not expect employees to do so much business mileage. I actually said "consider" not "you must do it now", but that's a fine point! This is also covered by the CCC, who point out that as individuals and employers we need to learn to travel less in general. Of course this also means better and cheaper public transport, so it is not simply an individual choice. But if you look ten or fifteen years ahead, it is unlikely, in my view, that the enormous amount of travel currently required in some companies will be possible, acceptable or affordable. So it would be wise to plan for it, or at least start to think about how it might be done. I know there are awkward customers who do not yet accept it. At least, talking about it helps, slowly, to change the attitudes.

 

[RogerS]

All very good points, MM, and nothing to take issue with. But there is a huge elephant in the room and that is for a lot of people, myself included, they're just too damn expensive - both new and secondhand. I know that will change but for a lot of people that timescale is way out there in the far distance.

 

[LarryS.]

Too expensive today but if Tesla hit their plans for battery production (which they’ll sell to others at a margin) and other manufacturers catch up (they’re spending a fortune to do so) we could be talking less than a couple of years


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[AES]

Maybe LarryS. I (once again!) haven't done my homework properly, but there have been a couple of items on German TV recently about Tesla's plans for a new factory in a part of what used to be E. Germany (somewhere up N & E of Berlin I think). Apparently it's an area where there's not all that much alternative employment but the local (and no doubt not so local?) environmentalists are demonstrating against the factory because of - I think - the damage it'll do to the local water table - or something.

I'm not saying that factory won't happen, but knowing something about German bureaucracy from personal experience (sometimes it's a bit faster than UK, sometimes a bit slower!) my guess is that it'll be more than a couple of years hence before that factory starts production - especially in view of the pending German "general election" and Angela Merkel's party's changing fortunes in recent "local" German elections.

But yeah, in principle, I'm sure you're right, and sooner or later the prices of EVs will come down, AND their range (and various other technicalities, including charging) WILL improve over today's offerings.

But in my own case, last year I was selfish enough (yup, I admit it) to come to the conclusion that for me/my particular circumstances, the buying price (my final consideration) of any available EV was more than A) what I was willing to pay, and B) would, in my own judgement, be unlikely to fall within acceptable (to me) limits within the time I guess I've got left to me as a driver.

But as above, yes, that was a selfish decision in so far as I was basing that decision entirely on my own wishes and needs, rather than taking any external factors such as the environment into consideration.

As I say, I do admit that, but at the same time I also submit that many people (the majority?) make such decisions on a very similar "selfish basis".

So the, "I'm guilty, but no more than him over there is" is NOT an excuse, I know that, but it IS something which does require a considerable change in mind set, which is why I find this thread so interesting, - AND very good natured!

Who knows, IF I'm still in a position to "need" another new car in 5 years time (which is about the average time I keep my cars) by then it could well be/probably will be EV.

Actually, if I need wheels at all by then, I'll probably be only be able to handle a mobility trike at best! AFAIK, they're ALL BEVs, so problem solved. (But I'll still be looking into one with a tuned-up lawnmower engine, and it'll no doubt need racing slicks on it so I get a good 0-60 time)!

 

[MusicMan]

All very good points, MM, and nothing to take issue with. But there is a huge elephant in the room and that is for a lot of people, myself included, they're just too damn expensive - both new and secondhand. I know that will change but for a lot of people that timescale is way out there in the far distance.

I appreciate that, Roger, and I've been conscious of that too. The financial turning point for me came when I added up the actual costs of maintaining my 17 year old (big Merc) car last year, and careful shopping for insurance and lease costs. They were about the same with margin of error. for a new Leaf n-accenta, the mid-range one. So I have to sacrifice the luxurious carry-anything load platform. In return I get a new car with precisely known costs, under warranty, modern car facilities and equipment, and still pretty good comfort and luggage capacity. Sure I could have spent less on an ICE model, but I knew I could afford what I was already paying, and I could start paying back some of the carbon I've used in the past! My circumstances allowed this, and I understand that yours and others' may not, but it came as a surprise to me that it was more affordable than I thought.

I am leasing for 2 years and am sure that the options will be much greater next time. OTOH like you I'll be advancing in age (80 shortly) but I bet my leccy wheelchair will beat your hotrod lawnmower one!

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I agree it is likely new EVs will come down in price, whilst range and recharging issues will improve and no longer represent a barrier to EV ownership for most.

But most people buy used cars - there are approx 2.0m new cars sold each year, and 30m+ cars on the road. Assuming that buyers of new cars keep them for 3 years, 6m are driving cars bought new and 24m were bought used.

Currently there few used EVs for sale relative to overall demand. And those that are for sale embed technology and software which is out of date as EV technology is evolving so rapidly.

A further issue is one of perception - even when the lifetime cost of an EV is close to ICE, the choice will be between (a) pay (say) £30k for a new EV, or (b) pay (say) £20k for ICE and save £20 a week (£1000 pa) on fuel costs for the next 10 years.

Bear in mind that the first owner will do the lifetime analysis over their anticipated ownership (3 years?), not the lifetime of the vehicle.

So I suspect it will be between 5 - 10 years before a fully "operational" used EV market develops - sufficient number of EVs available to provide buyers with a choice of vehicles locally, using reasonably competitive technology, and with proven support infrastructures (charging, repairs, etc)