£1000 Bandsaws (Again!) Axi vs SIP vs Sabre 350

[CaptainBarnacles]

Hi All,
I have read a lot of threads about bandsaws over the last few weeks and seem to have developed that dreaded state of analysis paralysis!

I am looking at the Axminster AT 2552B , the SIP 01444 , and the Record Sabre 350.

On paper, and going with the old addage that heavier is better, the SIP looks to be the winner. However popular opinion at the moment seems to favour the Sabre which I looked at this week and I have to admit it seemed decent enough. Apart from the reviews on Axminster's site I can't really find much said about the AT2552B but it seems that their Trade range generally perform well and are pretty well respected. I work almost exclusively with native, seasoned hardwoods and will need to cut anything up to 10" thick. I don't have access to 3 phase power and my current workshop power supply is pretty weedy (a 50m run of 2.5mm SWA) though I will be upgrading the supply eventually.

The 5 year guarantee on the Record is nice to have but apart from that does anyone have any strong views on why I should choose any one of these over the others?

Finally, to mix things up a bit more! I currently consider my self to be an enthusiastic amateur who occasionally does (paid) joinery jobs but I hope to become a part-time cabinet and chair maker over the next couple of years as my work situation changes. Should I be looking at a different class of machine (such as the Startrite 403 etc)? I normally go with "buy the best you can afford" and I can't really afford £1500 at the moment but I would rather stretch myself now than have to think about replacing the machine in 2 or 3 years time. So I suppose what I'm asking is will the sub £1000 machines be "industrial" enough for my needs for forward.

As usual, all advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[custard]

I'm sure all three bandsaws would get the job done, however if you're thinking of working full time then the Sabre has at least one characteristic that would get my vote...namely a solid steel fence mounting rail rather than an ali extrusion.

When you're working professionally you aren't always quite as gentle with your kit as you could be, I guarantee that one day you'll be manoeuvring a big billet of timber in the workshop and you'll bash that mounting rail. It's times like that you value metal over plastic or ali, a five year guarantee, and if the worst comes to the worst a good spares network!

 

[CaptainBarnacles]

Good points Custard, thanks. My last bandsaw had an ali extrusion for the fence to mount to and while I never damaged it I can see how it could deform when mistreated :roll:

On the flip side of that, the fence lock on the Sabre seemed a bit primitive. I'm all in favour of not over complicating mechanisms but it's nice to be able to adjust the fence quickly with a cam-lock. I'm sure I'd quickly adapt to the knob-tightening method :shock:

 

[MikeJhn]

From a personnel perspective, and it seems I am the only one who has this view, any manufacture that uses the side of a circular bearing as thrust control does not deserve any respect, that rules out the Axi, its manufactured in that way because its cheap to make a blade guide block in that way, this is of course IMO

 

[woodbloke66]

...the Sabre has at least one characteristic that would get my vote...namely a solid steel fence mounting rail rather than an ali extrusion.

When you're working professionally you aren't always quite as gentle with your kit as you could be, I guarantee that one day you'll be manoeuvring a big billet of timber in the workshop and you'll bash that mounting rail.

If you look at the pic in the linkie, the Sabre appears to have a huge lump of 'sticky out' mounting rail which to me looks like an accident waiting to happen. The solid bar is good, but that wouldn't be my choice of machine for that reason - Rob

 

[custard]

Good points Custard, thanks. My last bandsaw had an ali extrusion for the fence to mount to and while I never damaged it I can see how it could deform when mistreated :roll:

On the flip side of that, the fence lock on the Sabre seemed a bit primitive. I'm all in favour of not over complicating mechanisms but it's nice to be able to adjust the fence quickly with a cam-lock. I'm sure I'd quickly adapt to the knob-tightening method :shock:

Good point, I hadn't noticed that. In that case I'd also want to see how the tightening knob engaged with the bar, I'd be concerned that if the knob made a minute indentation in the tubular steel bar then it might be difficult to refasten it a whisker away from that original position, as it would want to drop back into the indentation.

 

[Trevanion]

any manufacture that uses the side of a circular bearing as thrust control does not deserve any respect

I’ve never seen a Carter style thrust bearing where the blade runs against the outer raceway on ANY standard stock bandsaw. Even the bandsaws that cost in the £10k range utilise a similar set up. Centaro Griggio, Felder, Wadkin all use that system just to name a few.

You might get marginal extra life out of the bearing but the actual difference in performance is nil, and bearings are only pence worth and last a long time anyway! Sharp blades make the difference in the quality of cut, not the set up of the bearings.

 

[MikeJhn]

All the Record Power Sabre range, just to name one, using the face of a bearing is a very bad engineering principal that is only manufactured that way to keep costs down, running a blade against the face of a bearing will heat up the blade, which is one of the things we try to avoid, the two contact points on the face of the bearing will oppose each other in the direction they wish to go, load is being applied sideways to the internal cage of the bearing which it was never designed to resist, the more you think about it the worse it becomes.

 

[Trevanion]

running a blade against the face of a bearing will heat up the blade, which is one of the things we try to avoid, the two contact points on the face of the bearing will oppose each other in the direction they wish to go, the more you think about it the worse it becomes.

You’re reading into it too much :lol:

I’ve ran bandsaws that run the blade on the face of the bearing for sometimes upwards of 8-10 hours depending on what’s going on, the blade gets far hotter from the friction of cutting the timber than a little metal on metal contact on the back of the blade which has dissipated once the blade does a full revolution. £200 bearing guide system or £3 for a bearing every few years or so?

 

[pollys13]

I expect you know, the Record 5 year only applies to domestic not commercial use.

 

[MikeJhn]

Not an engineer then.

 

[Trevanion]

Not an engineer then.

No, I'm not an engineer. I'm an industrial wood machinist. They're fairly similar though just different materials and machines :wink:

Yes, I understand regular ball bearings aren't designed for lateral loads in most cases E.G. Pillar drill, but they work just fine as a thrust bearing on a bandsaw. If anything running a blade against the diameter of the bearing is probably worse after a couple of years use as it will develop a groove or wear of some kind which the blade will rut into, the face of a bearing wears evenly as it's used. Also when using the outside of the bearing race as a thrust bearing you are putting all your pressure on one tiny spot on the diameter, which will stress the blade. Whilst if you use the face of the bearing you will have quite a large flat surface for the blade to push against which means the blade won't flex back as much.


This Wadkin PBR uses 2 1/2" blades with a power feed and usually cuts up to 4" hardwood day in day out and utilises a ball bearing as a thrust bearing. It's had the same bearing for about 5 or so years now, it's only now it could do with being changed as it's developed a slight burr on the edge of the bearing but it still works fine, spins freely and there is absolutely no play in the bearing laterally whatsoever, despite the incredible pressures put against it.

 

[Steliz]

Good points Custard, thanks. My last bandsaw had an ali extrusion for the fence to mount to and while I never damaged it I can see how it could deform when mistreated :roll:

On the flip side of that, the fence lock on the Sabre seemed a bit primitive. I'm all in favour of not over complicating mechanisms but it's nice to be able to adjust the fence quickly with a cam-lock. I'm sure I'd quickly adapt to the knob-tightening method :shock:

Good point, I hadn't noticed that. In that case I'd also want to see how the tightening knob engaged with the bar, I'd be concerned that if the knob made a minute indentation in the tubular steel bar then it might be difficult to refasten it a whisker away from that original position, as it would want to drop back into the indentation.

It states in the description that it has a cam lock. I have a similar bandsaw with the same fence set up and the fence rail has never been a problem for me and the fence is solid.

 

[MikeJhn]

Not an engineer then.

No, I'm not an engineer. I'm an industrial wood machinist. They're fairly similar though just different materials and machines :wink:

Yes, I understand regular ball bearings aren't designed for lateral loads in most cases E.G. Pillar drill, but they work just fine as a thrust bearing on a bandsaw. If anything running a blade against the diameter of the bearing is probably worse after a couple of years use as it will develop a groove or wear of some kind which the blade will rut into, the face of a bearing wears evenly as it's used. Also when using the outside of the bearing race as a thrust bearing you are putting all your pressure on one tiny spot on the diameter, which will stress the blade. Whilst if you use the face of the bearing you will have quite a large flat surface for the blade to push against which means the blade won't flex back as much.

Don't follow your logic, when using the outside of the bearing as a thrust bearing you are putting the pressure on the whole of the outside as it turns as it is supposed to, using the face of the bearing your are fighting the contact point on the upper and lower points of contact as the blade is at an angle to the face it is trying to run against, looking at the photo you posted the blade in that post would have to distort for the top of the bearing to make contact with the blade.

Carter's who you mentioned in one of your earlier post actually make a thrust bearing with a grove in it to hold thin blades in place.

 

[MikeJhn]

Not an engineer then.

No, I'm not an engineer. I'm an industrial wood machinist. They're fairly similar though just different materials and machines :wink:

Yes, I understand regular ball bearings aren't designed for lateral loads in most cases E.G. Pillar drill, but they work just fine as a thrust bearing on a bandsaw. If anything running a blade against the diameter of the bearing is probably worse after a couple of years use as it will develop a groove or wear of some kind which the blade will rut into, the face of a bearing wears evenly as it's used. Also when using the outside of the bearing race as a thrust bearing you are putting all your pressure on one tiny spot on the diameter, which will stress the blade. Whilst if you use the face of the bearing you will have quite a large flat surface for the blade to push against which means the blade won't flex back as much.

Don't follow your logic, when using the outside of the bearing as a thrust bearing you are putting the pressure on the whole of the outside as it turns as it is supposed to, using the face of the bearing your are fighting the contact point on the upper and lower points of contact as the blade is at an angle to the face it is trying to run against, the top of the bearing is moving to the right and the lower point is moving to the left, so the two supporting points are fighting each other, but looking at the photo you posted the blade in that post would have to distort for the top of the bearing to make contact with the blade.

Carter's who you mentioned in one of your earlier post actually make a thrust bearing with a grove in it to hold thin blades in place.

 

[Trevanion]

but looking at the photo you posted the blade in that post would have to distort for the top of the bearing to make contact with the blade.

A trick of the eye, that's the burr on the bearing making it look like it's canted back.

Don't follow your logic, when using the outside of the bearing as a thrust bearing you are putting the pressure on the whole of the outside as it turns as it is supposed to, using the face of the bearing your are fighting the contact point on the upper and lower points of contact as the blade is at an angle to the face it is trying to run against

You could never tell the difference between them in actual use though. My point is with running the thrust bearing on its diameter you're only making less than 1mm of contact with the blade in one spot (Minus the lower guide) which creates a high-stress spot for the back of the blade. With the bearing on its face, you are making contact with the whole face of the bearing of whatever size, which means less high-pressure stress in one spot.

If it were so great the high-end manufacturers would've picked up as an "optional extra" in a heartbeat. I've never seen a Carter-style guide on any straight out of the factory machines.

 

[MikeJhn]

The face of a bearing is not flat, it has a raised outer race so only contacts in two place's that oppose each other if they indeed do both contact the blade.

As I said on my previous post Carter-style guides are supplied as standard on the Record Power Sabre range of Bandsaws, please read the post.

So your thrust bearing has a burr on it, I wonder how that happened, also have a close look at your picture the bottom edge of the bearing has been worn sharp, but the top looks still nicely rounded, looks at though your thrust bearing does not turn much and all the load is taken on the bottom edge only.

 

[Ttrees]

If I were you, I would wait out till you see a nice 3 phase bandsaw that's 20" or larger, for about 7 or 800 quid, stick a hundred quid VFD on it and have quite a bit of money left in your pocket.

Here is an example of a 20" modern Wadkin machine weighing 200kgs or thereabouts
It was for sale for 800 quid recently and is nice and compact with a similar footprint to a smaller machine.
Weight is the best guide you have to judge how well the frame will hold up to a 3/4" blade on it.
Any floor standing machine weighing less than this will be a biscuit tin with wheels.

I run a 3HP 24" machine from a 13amp plug using a VFD, (Very easy to hook up for anyone)
and I have a bad supply.
An example, my wee household vacuum cleaner will dim the lights, but the bandsaw is fine.
Checking from the meter, the saw produces around the same consumption as my ageing laptop.
I notice no warming from the extension cable.
Good luck
Tom

 

[CaptainBarnacles]

Some interesting and informative discussions, thank you to everyone who has chipped in so far. I was all set to buy the Sabre 350 today but held off. I thought I'd give it a bit of careful consideration over the long weekend. The Sabre still looks appealing but now I'm starting to wonder if I'll regret not buying bigger.

I expect you know, the Record 5 year only applies to domestic not commercial use.

No, I didn't know that but I suppose that's only fair. If the machines aren't built for commercial use it would be crazy guarantee them for 5 years of commercial use.

I run a 3HP 24" machine from a 13amp plug using a VFD, (Very easy to hook up for anyone)
and I have a bad supply.
An example, my wee household vacuum cleaner will dim the lights, but the bandsaw is fine.
Checking from the meter, the saw produces around the same consumption as my ageing laptop.
I notice no warming from the extension cable.
Good luck
Tom

Mmmm, interesting idea. Which VFD do you use? I have no worries about wiring it up etc but as it's something I have haver looked into I could perhaps do with some guidance about which to buy (or not buy!).

 

[Ttrees]

I definitely would go for the Isacon/askpower VFD's again as it has the same auto shutoff cooling fan tech as Jack Forsbergs line of inverters, unlike the huanyang that have the fan running constantly all the time when plugged in.
These are about a hundred quid on the bay.
Ideally you wouldn't choose the VFD/inverter before knowing what machine its to go with, because
the motor might not be a dual voltage one ...dual voltage meaning the 3 phase is at 240 volts (delta configuration low voltage)or 400 volts (star configured high voltage)
If this is the case and the motor is a fixed star wound you either need to dig out the wiring or
buy a VFD/inverter that is 380 volts out which is an extra 50 quid.
Plenty of threads about this to see how its done if you find a bargain.

Tom