How much to install central heating?

[Phil Pascoe]

A friend installed his own solar thermal panels in 1982. I remember then both of us agreeing that all new properties inc. commercial and major renovations should be legally required to fit them. Imagine what the prices would have fallen to by now had that been the case.

 

[Beau]

A friend installed his own solar thermal panels in 1982. I remember then both of us agreeing that all new properties inc. commercial and major renovations should be legally required to fit them. Imagine what the prices would have fallen to by now had that been the case.

Not sure what your point is Phil

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Just a follow on to - I think the FITS did their job. They promoted PV getting loads of instals which in turn brought the costs of panels and systems right down ...

 

[Beau]

So we should have gone down the ST rout and not the PV one? Not sure ST would have had the same potential for price cuts as it's less about the technology involved, speculation though.

 

[OscarG]

First off sorry Oscar for continuing the derail.

Ha no worries fella... the technical stuff is a bit over my head, I will try and digest it all properly when I get a mo.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

So we should have gone down the ST rout and not the PV one? Not sure ST would have had the same potential for price cuts as it's less about the technology involved, speculation though.

No. His just happened to be those - I was just making a point that things could be much different if people's hands had been forced a long time ago. The solar thermals are different now, apparently. According to a plumber I spoke to a few weeks ago they use ethylene glycol or something to transfer the heat now rather than heating water directly, and are now a waste of time.

 

[sunnybob]

Solar water heating panels are fitted to every house here. They are wonderful. I get free hot water for all of the years showers and washing. Only have to switch the electric heater on if theres more than 2 people in the house.

Reference the glycol thing, heres a quick explanation of that.

There are two types of active solar water heating systems:
Direct circulation systems
Pumps circulate household water through the collectors and into the home. They work well in climates where it rarely freezes.
Indirect circulation systems
Pumps circulate a non-freezing, heat-transfer fluid through the collectors and a heat exchanger. This heats the water that then flows into the home. They are popular in climates prone to freezing temperatures.

So the UK really needs indirect to stop panels freezing and bursting all winter long.

I fitted CH here three years ago (yes, our winters ARE cold), using LPG feeding a baxi condensing wall mounted boiler. Thats the cheapest here, without spending 30K on roof electric.

 

[MikeG.]

Thanks Bob. That saved me about half an hour of typing. Solar thermal offers the single best return on investment in terms of money saving, energy saving, and repayment period. It's wonderful, simple, efficient, and relatively cheap. If anything should be made compulsory on new buildings (and I worry about that), then solar hot water systems are it.

By the way, talking of direct or indirect systems, my father had a direct system in Perth, Western Australia, where daytime summer temperatures can get to 45C+. He had to have a big sign standing in his hand basin warning people not to put their hands under the taps, as the hot tap often produced high pressure steam rather than hot water, and this would have put you straight into the local burns unit. It was a ridiculous system.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I thought about solar thermal but unfortunately it and E7 don't go well together.

 

[sunnybob]

Mike, Those aussies know nothing. 8)

Because our local mains pressure varies wildly from 2.5 bar down to zero, all houses here are pumped direct systems from a 1000 litre storage tank that mains fills as and when we have water. :shock:
I mean LOCAL. Every village has its own pumped wells and theres no mains grid out side the big towns and cities.

The hot water storage tank is on the roof above the two solar panels. It has an element for winter heating. But there is also an expansion tank up there, AND a pressure relief valve set to 5.5 bar.
I have my pump set to 3.5 bar so someone can have a shower without worrying about toilets or sinks being used. As the sun heats the water the expansion vessel accommodates it untill the pressure relief valve blows. If you get actual steam from the tap then the pressure relief valve is either missing or rusted up.
Our summers are always 40c (its still 34c now) so we have copious hot water.

The problem I had upon moving here was shower mixer taps because they dont do thermostatic valves. The reason? during the summer the incoming "cold water" is ambient temp. Thats 35c! From the cold tap! :shock:
Try mixing that down to 30 c for a cooling off shower. :roll: :roll: :roll:

But i nearly got burnt a few times so bought thermostatic from the UK.
I have to adjust them twice a year to make them usable, as our mid winter water temp is down to single digits.

 

[Beau]

Solar thermal offers the single best return on investment in terms of money saving, energy saving, and repayment period. I

How come? A quick google suggest price wise they cost around the same as 4kWh of PV but with PV you are looking at generating between 3200kWh and 4000kWh a year compared with 1000kWh-2500kWh with ST and spare electric can be exported for others to use but there is nothing you can do spare hot water.

 

[Rorschach]

And now the stupid feed in tariffs have been stopped how long will the payback time on them be?
My friend had the money at the time and had a 5kw system installed on his new house about fifteen years ago - it cost him something like £16,000 at the time - but his feed in is 42p or 43p per unit. :shock: Which we are paying dearly for, of course.

That's why I said in a few years, not now.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes. And?

 

[Beau]

I'm an advocate of wood pellet boilers, which when there is sufficient number to encourage local suppliers of pellets, will provide very low carbon heating, and, potentially, micro-electricity production.

Agreed but sadly looking less and less likely day by day. The price of wood is going through the roof at the moment due to demand. Currently large amounts are being hauled from the SW of England and Wales to a power plant in Kent to be burned. It's utter madness IMO and only going to get worse as demand keeps increasing. Combination of the country going mad for wood burning stoves and large amount of RHI driven biomass plants. Pellets I suspect will continue to be imported from countries with vastly more woodland.

This is where our local timber is being shipped to and we are not just talking rough softwood apparently milling grade timber is ending up there :evil: http://www.estover.co.uk/sandwich-chp/

 

[MikeG.]

All we can hope, Beau, is that market forces and the necessary incentives encourage landowners to grow short-rotation cropping of hazel, willow and so on, and maybe even bamboo, and that wasting great woodland timber on wood pellets and wood chips is soon a thing of the past.

 

[doctor Bob]

3 pages, 1 answer!

 

[sunnybob]

Thats democracy at work, that is. 8)