chaoticbob":7vohfk9f said:
Iirc my Meddings is the same. It'll happily drill 16mm holes in steel.
Drill press?
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Iirc my Meddings is the same. It'll happily drill 16mm holes in steel.
Bill Derr
Established Member
Bodgers":2iqudnue said:
This bloke seems to like it, if I was in the market for one I would probably have a punt on the Bosch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYCYGI0aAWc
heimlaga
Established Member
Be aware that the Bosch doesn't have a morse taper in it's quill. In my books that is a mayor drawback. It is also very lightly built.
Bodgers
Established Member
Yeah, I don't think it is intended to be a production shop level of build, I think the green paint flags that up.
So what's the deal with the Morse taper - what is that?
So what's the deal with the Morse taper - what is that?
heimlaga
Established Member
For woodworking you hardly ever use any drills with morse tapers but as soon as you start working metal all slightly larger drills and countersinks must have morse tapers or they will either spin in the chuck or make the chuck spin on it's shaft or just tear the chuck apart.
matt
Established Member
Bill Derr":1yizbco3 said:
Yes, and looking around he seems willing to spend on tools, extraction etc
transatlantic
Boom!
I've also been looking at the Bosch drill. It would be perfect for my needs. But the reviews are worrying
I've been holding back though as it's not exactly cheap for what it is. Especially as you can't just swap out the chuck for something better.
I've been holding back though as it's not exactly cheap for what it is. Especially as you can't just swap out the chuck for something better.
transatlantic":2l17pn7s said:
I haven't looked at the Bosch in question (I didn't spot a direct link in the thread, and I can't access Youtube here), but I doubt that the chuck is permanently mounted. They usually use a JT or B16 taper; even the morse taper chucks are usually a B16 mounted on a Morse taper shank. So the chuck can still be changed for a replacement or upgrade, it's just not meant for regular removal like a morse taper is.
Bodgers
Established Member
It is what it is. You have to take it on the understanding is a DIY level product.transatlantic":1ni8zz30 said:
Having said that, it actually looks fairly robust internally. There is a Russian guy that took one apart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5hLR6-9dEg
Steel gear box (no nylon cheapness) and plenty of cast alloy structural pieces.
It seems to be a popular unit, so it must work for a lot of users.
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AES
Established Member
To add to the above: "Mr. Morse" (I presume), along with several others with slightly different ideas, developed a system of standard size tapers. The most common that you'll find on home workshop machines are "MT1", "MT2" & "MT3".
Imagine the "inside tube" (female hole) on the head stock of a lathe, or in this case, a drill press. As you may guess, MT 1 is the smaller, MT 3 is the larger, but in all cases, the "inside tube" is tapered by a set amount, with the biggest dia hole at the "front" (tool entry end) and the smallest at the back.
If you now have a piece of round steel "bar" which is also tapered by the same (specified) amount, but this time with the small dia at the front end, you can see that ALL such "bars" which are made to that same taper spec can be fitted into all "tubes" also ground to that same taper spec (MT1, 2 or 3). AND they'll stay there "permanently" simply because of the friction between the 2 tapered faces (one on the "bar" one on the "tube"). To remove you simply break the friction for which there is an easy process, varying dependant on the tool. If/when we get to that point, ask again ad someone will explain, but it's dead easy and this post is too/long enough already!
Thus if you take, say, a drilling chuck, and mount it onto one of those "bars" it will fit into any "tube" fitted on, say, a lathe or, in this case, a drill press. Take my drill press for example - it has a MT3 "tube" (that's called the "quill" BTW) and that's what's driven round and round by the motor. Again in my case, I have quite a big 3 jaw drill chuck (15mm dia capacity if I remember right), thus I can fit into that chuck any type of drill bit with a round end up to a maximum of 15 mm dia. BUT that same drill chuck, because it's pretty big, does not reliably close down accurately on any drill bit smaller than about 3mm dia. So I have another MT3 bar on which is mounted a much smaller drill chuck which can happily cover any drill diameter between zero and about 4 mm. Thus with one machine and 2 drill chucks I can happily bore any hole from, say, 0.1 mm dia up to about 15mm dia. As the previous poster has already said, for most wood working jobs that's enough, and for the rare occasions when you need a bigger hole in wood there are tools such as hole saws which have a centre pilot drill which will fit a 15mm capacity chuck.
BUT, as the previous poster has also said above, IF you get to get into wanting bigger diameter holes in hard stuff like steel you COULD go out and buy an even bigger chuck than my 15mm jobby - BUT that would be VERY expensive if it's to have any accuracy at all (big accurate chucks are difficult, and so expensive to make).
So when I wanted some 23 mm dia holes in steel I went to the local good tool store (not a B&Q type place) and bought a single 23 mm drill bit. This drill bit, instead of having a plain non-tapered shank on it had a MT 3 taper on the end, so it fitted straight into my drill press (after first removing the chuck of course).
Note that my drill press is a fairly big one, it has a max drilling capacity of 20 mm on the data plate (that's theoretically), but it's got a 600 Watt motor, so when selecting the lowest possible "gear" (i.e. speed - mine's a cheapo, so uses belts to change speeds, not a gearbox) it quite happily drilled me those 23 mm holes in MS. In fact I've also drilled about 26 mm if I remember, but that IS approaching the real limit of my machine though.
NOTE also PLEASE, if drilling holes that big the work piece MUST be bolted or clamped down! SAFETY - with those sorts of sizes, if the drill catches slightly on the job (which it will) then there is so much torque involved that the machine will easily rip the job out of you hand - and that HURTS!
Finally note that I am now the "proud owner" of a 23 mm drill bit with an MT3 end on it. So because my lathe also has an MT3 taper tail stock, I can happily use that same drill directly in the lathe. And over time I've also acquired about half a dozen other bigger than 15 mm dia drill bits with MT3 ends, all of which can be used directly on both machines. So good idea Mr. Morse! (I presume there was once such a gent, dunno).
So in short having a drill press with an MT taper quill (female hole) is very handy IF you think you'll ever be doing "daft stunts" like drilling girt big 'oles in 'ard stuff"! VERY useful at times I find and so I'm glad I bought a drill press with a MT quill.
Sorry it's long but hope it's now clear and HTH your choice.
Imagine the "inside tube" (female hole) on the head stock of a lathe, or in this case, a drill press. As you may guess, MT 1 is the smaller, MT 3 is the larger, but in all cases, the "inside tube" is tapered by a set amount, with the biggest dia hole at the "front" (tool entry end) and the smallest at the back.
If you now have a piece of round steel "bar" which is also tapered by the same (specified) amount, but this time with the small dia at the front end, you can see that ALL such "bars" which are made to that same taper spec can be fitted into all "tubes" also ground to that same taper spec (MT1, 2 or 3). AND they'll stay there "permanently" simply because of the friction between the 2 tapered faces (one on the "bar" one on the "tube"). To remove you simply break the friction for which there is an easy process, varying dependant on the tool. If/when we get to that point, ask again ad someone will explain, but it's dead easy and this post is too/long enough already!
Thus if you take, say, a drilling chuck, and mount it onto one of those "bars" it will fit into any "tube" fitted on, say, a lathe or, in this case, a drill press. Take my drill press for example - it has a MT3 "tube" (that's called the "quill" BTW) and that's what's driven round and round by the motor. Again in my case, I have quite a big 3 jaw drill chuck (15mm dia capacity if I remember right), thus I can fit into that chuck any type of drill bit with a round end up to a maximum of 15 mm dia. BUT that same drill chuck, because it's pretty big, does not reliably close down accurately on any drill bit smaller than about 3mm dia. So I have another MT3 bar on which is mounted a much smaller drill chuck which can happily cover any drill diameter between zero and about 4 mm. Thus with one machine and 2 drill chucks I can happily bore any hole from, say, 0.1 mm dia up to about 15mm dia. As the previous poster has already said, for most wood working jobs that's enough, and for the rare occasions when you need a bigger hole in wood there are tools such as hole saws which have a centre pilot drill which will fit a 15mm capacity chuck.
BUT, as the previous poster has also said above, IF you get to get into wanting bigger diameter holes in hard stuff like steel you COULD go out and buy an even bigger chuck than my 15mm jobby - BUT that would be VERY expensive if it's to have any accuracy at all (big accurate chucks are difficult, and so expensive to make).
So when I wanted some 23 mm dia holes in steel I went to the local good tool store (not a B&Q type place) and bought a single 23 mm drill bit. This drill bit, instead of having a plain non-tapered shank on it had a MT 3 taper on the end, so it fitted straight into my drill press (after first removing the chuck of course).
Note that my drill press is a fairly big one, it has a max drilling capacity of 20 mm on the data plate (that's theoretically), but it's got a 600 Watt motor, so when selecting the lowest possible "gear" (i.e. speed - mine's a cheapo, so uses belts to change speeds, not a gearbox) it quite happily drilled me those 23 mm holes in MS. In fact I've also drilled about 26 mm if I remember, but that IS approaching the real limit of my machine though.
NOTE also PLEASE, if drilling holes that big the work piece MUST be bolted or clamped down! SAFETY - with those sorts of sizes, if the drill catches slightly on the job (which it will) then there is so much torque involved that the machine will easily rip the job out of you hand - and that HURTS!
Finally note that I am now the "proud owner" of a 23 mm drill bit with an MT3 end on it. So because my lathe also has an MT3 taper tail stock, I can happily use that same drill directly in the lathe. And over time I've also acquired about half a dozen other bigger than 15 mm dia drill bits with MT3 ends, all of which can be used directly on both machines. So good idea Mr. Morse! (I presume there was once such a gent, dunno).
So in short having a drill press with an MT taper quill (female hole) is very handy IF you think you'll ever be doing "daft stunts" like drilling girt big 'oles in 'ard stuff"! VERY useful at times I find and so I'm glad I bought a drill press with a MT quill.
Sorry it's long but hope it's now clear and HTH your choice.
transatlantic
Boom!
Bodgers":2exti29t said:
Not sure I would call it DIY. It's out of the price range most people would pay for a DIY product. And then add to that, not really a DIY product in the first place. I know it's the Bosch green which usually means DIY, but it doesn't really fit given the price point.
It's more of an expensive hobby tool when you consider the price of hobby bench mount drills.
Another product I was considering, coming from the point of view of a small bench drill, was this :
https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/catalog ... er-bf1240/
coupled with a decent quality corded drill. From the videos I have seen, it's very well built. And I am sure the extra reach in the front to back axis would come in really handy. I would love to give it a try. But what kind of corded drill would give you the most power?
downsides would be :-
- awkward to turn on/off
- Noise of a corded drill
- More play than drill press, but maybe good enough?
- No angled cutting
but I see a few people on youtube making good use of them.
AES
Established Member
I've seen these on the shelf and they look pretty good, but I've never tried one. The idea of changing speeds by gearbox is pretty attractive though (compared to standing on a stool with my head at ceiling level to change belts on my bench top drill press)!
BUT they are pretty expensive (mind you nothing is cheap in Switzerland). I think you're right, that green colour is just a bum steer, that's not a DIY tool price I don't think.
BUT they are pretty expensive (mind you nothing is cheap in Switzerland). I think you're right, that green colour is just a bum steer, that's not a DIY tool price I don't think.
Bodgers
Established Member
Yeah they aren't cheap.transatlantic":30bcqmsq said:
The Bosch site says:
"The PBD 40 is a bench drill for DIYers who want to drill with the utmost precision"
There are two main photos. One shows a guy drilling holes in a cabinet door in his workshop.
The other shows a clearly well heeled guy in his home garage "precision" drilling some sort of metal bracket for the bumber on his classic Mercedes SL convertible.
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matt
Established Member
On the subject of drill stand vs bench drill... I'm currently using a Record Power DSM26. I say "using"... I've had it for several years and whilst it's a heavyweight piece of kit it's not a pleasure to use. Simply altering the height requires the user to support the head (heavy) whilst releasing the clamp before moving it up or down. The weight means it's hard to be precise and get it aligned so the drill is above the clearance hole in the base. I usually take one look, reach for my cordless drill, and hope for the best. I did have a bench mortiser too until a short while ago and tended to use that but it too had it's downsides.
This is the DSM26. The current version (DSM 19, I think) appears to have a rack-and-pinion for adjusting height.
This is the DSM26. The current version (DSM 19, I think) appears to have a rack-and-pinion for adjusting height.
heimlaga
Established Member
If they were priced accordingly I would not try to talk anyone out of buying a Bosch benchtop drill. I just think it is a bit too much money to spend on what technically is a light duty hobby machine.
Not when I got this one for exactly the same money
It had to pay a bit for new bearings and a new belt and a new cable and for adding an motor protection contactor with emergency stop (which pure hobbyists don't need) but still the total cost was only a little higher than a Bosch.
Then of cause everything depends on how you define the word "hobby".
My other drill predd the gear head Arboga is a hobby tool. Even though it costed me something like 1300 euros including rebuild costs plus the cost of a secondhand set of metal drills for every half millimetre up to 31mm.
However my metalworking hobby reduces the investments and the maintainance costs for keeping other more or less money making activities going so therefore the cost was justified. I rekon it has pretty much paid itself in 10 years of reduced costs.
The maximum cost level depends on how the machine and the hobby is integrated into the rest of one's life and economy.
Not when I got this one for exactly the same money
It had to pay a bit for new bearings and a new belt and a new cable and for adding an motor protection contactor with emergency stop (which pure hobbyists don't need) but still the total cost was only a little higher than a Bosch.
Then of cause everything depends on how you define the word "hobby".
My other drill predd the gear head Arboga is a hobby tool. Even though it costed me something like 1300 euros including rebuild costs plus the cost of a secondhand set of metal drills for every half millimetre up to 31mm.
However my metalworking hobby reduces the investments and the maintainance costs for keeping other more or less money making activities going so therefore the cost was justified. I rekon it has pretty much paid itself in 10 years of reduced costs.
The maximum cost level depends on how the machine and the hobby is integrated into the rest of one's life and economy.
Attachments
matt
Established Member
I get the point and the throat depth has huge appeal from a capacity point of view. If I had a larger workshop I would certainly consider a second hand machine. However, my shop is small and that's where the Bosch (despite its shortfalls) has a significant benefit. The size and weight make it easy to move and NOT having a movable table means I can set the bed height to match that of my tablesaw and mitresaw. That means each machine (all on casters) doubles up as a workpiece support vs having to find space for stands etc.
I made a mistake buying a large, cast iron tablesaw that was impractical for my space. After many years of celebrating how good it was; despite not being able to actually use it as often as I would have liked, I swapped it for a DeWalt portable site saw. I use the DeWalt all the time; especially as I can carry it outside to use. It's accurate beyond what I can measure and has some neat features that just work for me.
I've learnt that the potential of the machine itself is not always the right priority to pursue. It's early days with my more pragmatic hat on so it remains to be seen whether my latest strategy is the right one.
I made a mistake buying a large, cast iron tablesaw that was impractical for my space. After many years of celebrating how good it was; despite not being able to actually use it as often as I would have liked, I swapped it for a DeWalt portable site saw. I use the DeWalt all the time; especially as I can carry it outside to use. It's accurate beyond what I can measure and has some neat features that just work for me.
I've learnt that the potential of the machine itself is not always the right priority to pursue. It's early days with my more pragmatic hat on so it remains to be seen whether my latest strategy is the right one.
AES
Established Member
Matt, you wrote, QUOTE:
I've learnt that the potential of the machine itself is not always the right priority to pursue. It's early days with my more pragmatic hat on so it remains to be seen whether my latest strategy is the right one. UNQUOTE:
Yup, I certainly sympathise with that, and I guess many others here do too. A lot depends on how your hobby activities progress over time, and that is of course is an unknown unless you have really clear & definite plans like "I'm gonna build an XXX". I never did that - it all "just grew like topsy"!
But one other thing to keep in mind, if whatever you buy is at least "decent" (not real cheapo carp)then if it turns out not to fit your particular needs later on, it can at least be sold on with not too much loss.
I've learnt that the potential of the machine itself is not always the right priority to pursue. It's early days with my more pragmatic hat on so it remains to be seen whether my latest strategy is the right one. UNQUOTE:
Yup, I certainly sympathise with that, and I guess many others here do too. A lot depends on how your hobby activities progress over time, and that is of course is an unknown unless you have really clear & definite plans like "I'm gonna build an XXX". I never did that - it all "just grew like topsy"!
But one other thing to keep in mind, if whatever you buy is at least "decent" (not real cheapo carp)then if it turns out not to fit your particular needs later on, it can at least be sold on with not too much loss.
heimlaga
Established Member
I agree.
In very cramped conditions buying undersize machines is often the only way to get enough free space to actually make anything. That is certainly as true in overpopulated Britain as it is in Finland where heating costs are high.
However I have notised that hobby workshops tend to fill up with a multitude of small weak low quality machines and gadgets which aren't quite good enough to be productive at all and just make the owner believe that he needs more gadgets.
When I had a cramped workshop at 2,9 by 5,5 metres I figured that I wanted the best possible machines for those jobs that would be too time consuming or impossible to do by hand. Then I did the rest using hand tools. Not a gadget in sight and very few hand held power tools. Everything in it's place with most of the tools hanging on the walls.
Quite the opposite of the route most hobbyists go but I found my philosophy to be very productive. I even did production work for profit part time in that workshop.
We are all different individuals so my solution doesn't fit everyone but I belive that many would gain productivity and reduce frustration by having a smaller number of better machines together with good organisation.
In very cramped conditions buying undersize machines is often the only way to get enough free space to actually make anything. That is certainly as true in overpopulated Britain as it is in Finland where heating costs are high.
However I have notised that hobby workshops tend to fill up with a multitude of small weak low quality machines and gadgets which aren't quite good enough to be productive at all and just make the owner believe that he needs more gadgets.
When I had a cramped workshop at 2,9 by 5,5 metres I figured that I wanted the best possible machines for those jobs that would be too time consuming or impossible to do by hand. Then I did the rest using hand tools. Not a gadget in sight and very few hand held power tools. Everything in it's place with most of the tools hanging on the walls.
Quite the opposite of the route most hobbyists go but I found my philosophy to be very productive. I even did production work for profit part time in that workshop.
We are all different individuals so my solution doesn't fit everyone but I belive that many would gain productivity and reduce frustration by having a smaller number of better machines together with good organisation.
matt
Established Member
Just out of the box (the Bosch, that is...) and first impressions are that it's should be grey in colour. Not quite blue but not green either.
matt
Established Member
I've been playing with the new toy; simply drilling holes, plugs etc in a chunk of pine. All good so far. Pleasantly effortless to use in terms of quickly making changes to speed, height, and bit. Happy with my £250 spend.
