Middle Rail Design for six panel door - whats wrong here?

[kingcod]

I'm making up a traditional six panel door to replace a crappy 1950s flat door.

I've been reading that the panels themselves should 'float' within the stile and rail frame. Correct?

So rails and stiles need a track routing in them.

The problem them comes if I want a traditional twin tenon for the rails. As the picture shows I'd end up having to rout into the tenons which is bound to weaken them.



Is it acceptable to step the tenons in as shown in the second picture?

 

[RobinBHM]

Yes indeed thats the correct solution and the conventional approach.

Usually the tenons woukd be cut first, then the rails grooved on a spindle moulder, which would be a through groove that takes part of the tenon.

When marking out remember the mortice is narrower by 2x the groove depth.

Also haunch between twin tenon fills groove.

It all works fine as long as the groove, mortice and panel can all be designed to be the same.

 

[katellwood]

What size middle rail are you planning on, this will depend on whether you need single or a twin tenon.

I would suggest a width of approx. 9" (225mm) rough sawn for the width of the rail finished to approx. 8 3/4".

If you are planning on a traditional door the grooves will need to 1/2 deep which will come out of the tenon width. This will leave an overall width of 7 3/4".

I would then divide this by three where the outer thirds are the twin tenons and the central third is the haunch. The haunch will still need morticing in slightly I would suggest 3/4" and the tenon cut accordingly.

When setting out this mortice don't forget to set in from either end the depth of the groove otherwise the mortice will be too wide



Traditionally I always cut the tenon wedges out of this section of the haunch (assuming you are using through mortices) then cut them out with a coping saw


The attached is actually a gunstock stile on a door I completed years ago, take a look at the bottom section which may give you a clue as to how to continue

 

[deema]

Not sure what age your house is, but often doors had a skin put on to make them flat, you may have a lovely door hiding under the skin. This isn't to change your plans, but it may be worth a few pounds should you decide to make a new one

 

[kingcod]

Thanks for the advice. I now have all the parts ready to assemble: 6 panel door with fox wedging on all tenons, thats about sixteen joints to get nice and tight and square during glueing up.
The assembly is looking a bit daunting!
Any tips to ensure I've got enough time to get it all squared up before the glue gets too tacky? Im thinking of using titebond or the cheaper everbuild stuff.

 

[AndyT]

This is from reading old books, not from practical experience, but the method I've seen described is to dry assemble the whole door with the panels in place and the tenons pushed in about a quarter of the depth. Then go round with the glue, knock or cramp together, then glue and fit any external wedges.

So you separate the assembly work (slow, fiddly) from the glueing (quick). There's a school of thought that says tenons should not be glued full depth. (There's bound to be another that says they should - contradictory advice is older than online forums!)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'd play safe and use a UF glue instead - much better open time. If you must use PVA you can spray all the parts with water, this'll slow the grab up. Everbuild? I wouldn't use D4 (great as it is), it'll definitely dry to quickly.

 

[kingcod]

Well I opted for Cascamite - and it was a good job I did use a glue with a long open time - half way through glue up I realised I hadn't routed the stiles to fit the panels!

Just like Corporal Jones I didn't panic (much) and after some frantic work got it glued up tight and square in under 90 minutes.