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By Rorschach
#1254949
Tasky wrote:
Rorschach wrote:Yes I totally agree, but the law doesn't specify how useful something is at stabbing.

I'd argue the reasonings for banning lock knives establish the precedent for exactly that. Otherwise I'd be done for carrying an improvised cosh every time I bought a battered sausage from the chippy. Speaking of which, the Micra is about as good at stabbing things as a saveloy...


Yes you might, but if that were the case, the law would have specified sizes of lock knife that were legal/illegal. They don't. But anyway, you make my point perfectly, it's an argument, yet to be tested in law.

Rorschach wrote:Once again, silly, but it's the law.

I also expect the human judge to exercise some level of common flippin' sense, to mitigate the silliness as much as possible.[/quote]

I would hope so also, but once again you make my point, untested in law and relying on common sense, never sensible.
We KNOW that a swiss army type knife is legal EDC, it is written in law and precedent has been set, we KNOW a locking knife is not legal EDC, it is written in law, precedent has been set. The micra is a special case, has not been tested in court, no precedent is set therefore we do not KNOW if it is legal EDC, which was my original point
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By Tasky
#1255139
Rorschach wrote:Yes you might, but if that were the case, the law would have specified sizes of lock knife that were legal/illegal. They don't.

It doesn't have to. It specifies that locks are illegal and explains why. By that same explanation, the Micra does not have a lock, so does not fall under the same ban. Length is a separate element.

Rorschach wrote:The micra is a special case, has not been tested in court, no precedent is set therefore we do not KNOW if it is legal EDC, which was my original point

Well without any definitive proof, general assumption, potential precedents, or anything else to even suggest that it might be illegal, there's no reason to go curtailing your lifestyle.
By Rorschach
#1255145
Tasky wrote:Well without any definitive proof, general assumption, potential precedents, or anything else to even suggest that it might be illegal, there's no reason to go curtailing your lifestyle.


Since it fails the test set out in Harris vs DPP, it is much more likely to be illegal than legal and since there are plenty other definitely legal options out there I think I will play it safe
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By dynax
#1255148
i can see no logical reason to carry any sort of knife outside of a work or hobby related situation, you go to work, get tooled up etc, when finished, tools packed away, what reason would there be to still have a knife in your pocket or on your belt, i have knives for different jobs, and various knives for my hobbies, which are all legal, but i don't carry them when i don't need them, even just going to a shop or something at work, i wouldn't carry one, i would take it out of my pocket or case if on a belt and leave it with the rest of my tools,
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By Tasky
#1255159
Rorschach wrote:Since it fails the test set out in Harris vs DPP

In your interpretation of the 'test' only, and certainly not as I understand it.

"In the Crown Court appeal of Harris v. DPP (1992) and the Court of Appeal case of R. v Deegan (1998) the ruling that 'folding' was intended to mean 'non-locking' was upheld".
In the Harris case notes, it says the knife "had a pointed blade and that it locked in the fully open position".
The Micra does not lock in the fully open position.
Moreover, the blade is not "locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device", so it's not a lock knife. Indeed, some types of knife use pressure on the blade itself rather than the above and they'e not (yet) considered locking blades. Moreover, the Micra's blade is not in any way held in place by its closed handle, as it can move out of place quite a way.

dynax wrote:i can see no logical reason to carry any sort of knife outside of a work or hobby related situation

On my keys I have a teeny tiny multitool, with knife blade, pliers, crosshead screwdriver, wire cutters, wire strippers, file, bottle opener, flathead screwdriver, and scissors... and that's the order in which they get used most frequently.
These are just completely random, ad-hoc situations that have arisen while I have been out and about, from opening a box or a letter, to fixing someone's reading glasses, to installing some cabling, to working on a car, working in an office, going shopping, building a PC round a friend's house..... I've only had the thing a couple of years, as well.
By Rorschach
#1255167
Tasky wrote:In your interpretation of the 'test' only, and certainly not as I understand it.

"In the Crown Court appeal of Harris v. DPP (1992) and the Court of Appeal case of R. v Deegan (1998) the ruling that 'folding' was intended to mean 'non-locking' was upheld".
In the Harris case notes, it says the knife "had a pointed blade and that it locked in the fully open position".
The Micra does not lock in the fully open position.
Moreover, the blade is not "locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device", so it's not a lock knife. Indeed, some types of knife use pressure on the blade itself rather than the above and they'e not (yet) considered locking blades. Moreover, the Micra's blade is not in any way held in place by its closed handle, as it can move out of place quite a way.


Ok if you want to quote bits from the Harris judgement, how about this bit?

"In my judgment, the right approach to the matter is this. To be a folding pocketknife the knife has to be readily and indeed immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process."

Does the micra pass this test? No it doesn't, the blade will not fold unless you first open the handle fully and then you can fold the blade. That is neither ready nor immediate, nor a simple folding process.
User avatar
By Tasky
#1255189
Rorschach wrote:Ok if you want to quote bits from the Harris judgement

You started that... I'm just working with what you give me.

Rorschach wrote:Does the micra pass this test?

Yup.

Rorschach wrote:No it doesn't, the blade will not fold unless you first open the handle fully and then you can fold the blade.

1/. It does not 'lock in the fully open position', which is the whole point being debated in those court cases.
2/. Yes it still folds, and far enough that it's pineapple useless for stabbing anything, which is why lock knives are seperately designated.

Rorschach wrote:That is neither ready nor immediate, nor a simple folding process.


Readily:
without hesitation or reluctance; willingly.
without delay or difficulty; easily.

Immediately:
at once; instantly.
without any intervening time or space.

It definitely does both of those. Just push lightly on the back of the blade!!


"Appearing for Mr Harris, Mr McGuire accepted that it is obviously a more effective stabbing weapon if it is locked, for the very plain reason that without a lock there is a dangerous tendency, dangerous, that is to say, from the point of view of the wielder, to fold on to the wielder's hand".
Which the Micra and many similar models do.

"For the Director of Public Prosecutions in each case, Mr McGuinness answers the question from the court as to the thinking behind the statute by saying this. [i]When the knife is locked it becomes in effect a fixed blade knife and the intention of the statute is to prevent the carrying of such a knife."[/i]
The Micra does not lock and, even though the handle may prevent it from fully closing, it folds far enough that no reasonable person would consider it a fixed blade.

You also forget that Trading Standards do a LOT of checking on, and working closely with, companies that sell things like knives, both underage test purchasing, and other common legal issues - If they were selling these things as EDC legal when they weren't, you can bet your left testicle TS would have slammed the living pineapple out of them for false advertising.
By Seiken
#1255210
dynax wrote:i can see no logical reason to carry any sort of knife outside of a work or hobby related situation,


I was given my first pocket knife as a boy and apart from when going to school have always carried one (I'm now over 60), I cannot count the number of times I have used it in unforeseen circumstances, anything from cutting wrappings to prising a nail out of a tyre.
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By Eric The Viking
#1255298
Seiken wrote:
dynax wrote:i can see no logical reason to carry any sort of knife outside of a work or hobby related situation,


I was given my first pocket knife as a boy and apart from when going to school have always carried one (I'm now over 60), I cannot count the number of times I have used it in unforeseen circumstances, anything from cutting wrappings to prising a nail out of a tyre.


Quite.

And the other thing is that I have a pouch/sheath for my Victorinox, which, depending on task, is often on my belt. Same with my Leatherman PST*, which has a 4" blade (and has to be opened to fold the blade - it is held straight as long as the handle is tightly closed).

So what happens when I forget it's there and nip down to the shops? Am I technically in breach of the law or not?

And never mind the 5" bladed sheath knife I've had ever since I was in the school scout troop aged twelve. You were supposed to carry that on Scout parade, incidentally, and to keep it suitably fettled. That one I almost never use, only because the other two are better in the modern world, but if I still went backpacking, etc., it would be jolly useful still.

E.

*currently trying to replace that sheath having lost it but the principle remains.
By Rorschach
#1255315
Eric The Viking wrote:
So what happens when I forget it's there and nip down to the shops? Am I technically in breach of the law or not?



Depends on the circumstances. If you are at home, and go out to the shops, yes you are in breach of the law. If you are out working and go to the shops on the way home or during lunch, perfectly legal.