‘Our MDF furniture brought toxic fumes into our home’

[sammy.se]

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/ ... rmaldehyde

What do people think?
Could be a highly improbable occurrence, or was suspect MDF being used?

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[Mike Jordan]

I am certain that MDF gives off fumes particularly when it's fresh off the stack at the merchants. Some years back I collected a single sheet in the back of a transit van and noted that it smelled very strongly during the half hour journey. It did the same to my little timber store which was well ventilated.
I don't use it for any furniture of other jobs but do find it useful for making templates for the router and spindle moulder.
The only exception is my use of veneered MDF for small door panels because the timber merchants only stock material with two veneered faces in this rather than plywood. I don't like the idea of it being on view in any piece of furniture.
In the boat fitting business only the yards that have invested in a CNC machine are keen to use it, It creates a very poor quality job in instances where the edges of veneered panels are not lipped but proudly moulded and varnished.
The really cheap end of the market!
I seem to remember reading that you are not supposed to burn any waste bits because of the fumes given off, but I can't remember any details.
I think it must be very cheap to produce and popular with CNC users because there are no glues lines to spoil cutting edges. I have say that it's stable and doesn't change size or shape.
Reading the report above has made me more determined to avoid it in future wherever possible.

 

[sammy.se]

That's very interesting given it's pretty much the primary material for fitted furniture makers...

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[doctor Bob]

Readsing the article carefully it seems it was volatile organic compounds causing the problem. This is the sprayed finish still emitting fumes.
The fumes will disapate over time.
Formaldyhyde is mentioned but the eye watering symptoms are from the paint.

Probably sprayed a few days prior to installation. Water based paints are more the norm these days.

I'll stick to being more concerned about Booze, sugar, fags, drugs, fast food, diesel fumes, petrol fumes, vaping, plastics, global warming, fizzy drinks, butter, eggs, red meat, the polar ice melt, carbon footprint etc.

 

[Droogs]

The VOC off-gassing of MDF has been known about for yeas and is just as bad as a lot of the paint and varnish used commercially. Formaldehyde free MDF is around and is a lot more expensive. But even so MDF should always be sealed, primed and painted with VOC free products to prevent this kind of reaction. Also if you are unsure if the MDF you are using is a free from or low level then a suitable mask should be worn if you will have a long exposure. The really sad part is that most (by a large %) professional fitters don't even know about this at all. Off-gassing whether from the MDF or the finish can have markedly more effect on the young and causes a lot of symptoms to many serious maladies, can be a nightmare for parents/medics to eventually work out what it is causing the problems

 

[sammy.se]

A company charging £16K for bedroom cupboards (if you take the article at face value) should have known better - i.e. known enough about the VOCs from the paints, and deal with it suitably. Sounds like a mistake they should have been able to avoid...

 

[AES]

Personally I don't use enough MDF or know enough about working it to comment. But I wonder what Peter "10 Minute Workshop" Millard of this parish has to say? From his Youtube videos he seems to use MDF almost exclusively for his built-ins business, and BTW, also uses water based finishes pretty exclusively, if not always.

It may be the Guardian's way of reporting (I mean the tone of the complaint), but personally, although I can well understand the buyers complaint, and indeed sympathise, I did think they were perhaps a bit wingey and unreasonable if the company really did offer (first) to repaint the whole job, and (second) remake the whole shebang from new with a different material but were each time turned down. But perhaps I'm being unfair to them?

 

[petermillard]

Personally I don't use enough MDF or know enough about working it to comment. But I wonder what Peter "10 Minute Workshop" Millard of this parish has to say? From his Youtube videos he seems to use MDF almost exclusively for his built-ins business, and BTW, also uses water based finishes pretty exclusively, if not always...

There’s an awful lot of inconsistency in the article as reported, lots of gaps and odd conclusions that are skimmed over. The couple featured are local to me and I’ve asked if they’d be prepared to fill in those blanks for me, as I’ve a video planned about MDF that would tie in nicely with this story. We’ll see; it’s been a long and sorry story all around, and I suspect they’d rather put it all behind them... I’ve made the same proposal to the company concerned also; again, we’ll see.

WRT MDF and formaldehyde, I only use Medite MR MDF, which complies with the E1 standard, but also the (much) more stringent CARB phase 2 standard.

For anyone with concerns, I recommend the HSE FAQ:-
http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/faq-mdf.htm

Money quote: “The most common binder for boards intended for dry environments is urea-formaldehyde. Other binders may be used depending on the grade of board and its intended end-use. For example, melamine urea-formaldehyde, phenolic resins and polymeric diphenylmethane diisocyanate (PMDI) are generally used in boards that require an improved moisture resistance. PMDI binder is not formaldehyde-based and consequently does not emit any formaldehyde. The exact constituents of an MDF board will vary from product to product.”

and

“In Europe, the majority of manufacturers produce only low emission boards. There are some boards available on the market with extremely low formaldehyde emissions and some with ‘no added formaldehyde’, for example those using formaldehyde free binders such as PMDI, i.e. these boards will only have the naturally occurring emissions from the wood itself. Manufacturers from outside Europe may however produce boards that have higher emissions.”

So, buy branded goods made in the EU with the appropriate markings, and preferably MR MDF. Not hard, is it? Agree with Dr Bob that the issue was most likely paint-related, though the article claims the VOC levels were “4x acceptable” after many weeks of storage in a barn?? One of many questions I’d appreciate clarification on... Also did the supplying company not have the stripped out materials independently tested?? If not not why not, and if so where are the results?

FWIW I’ve only used water-based paints for the last 12 years or so, and the improvements over that time have been significant.

More to come in this, fingers crossed.

P

 

[acewoodturner]

If I had £18K to blow on bedroom furniture I would want it made from real wood and not that reconstituted stuff!

 

[porker]

There’s an awful lot of inconsistency in the article as reported, lots of gaps and odd conclusions that are skimmed over. The couple featured are local to me and I’ve asked if they’d be prepared to fill in those blanks for me, as I’ve a video planned about MDF that would tie in nicely with this story. We’ll see; it’s been a long and sorry story all around, and I suspect they’d rather put it all behind them... I’ve made the same proposal to the company concerned also; again, we’ll see.

WRT MDF and formaldehyde, I only use Medite MR MDF, which complies with the E1 standard, but also the (much) more stringent CARB phase 2 standard.

For anyone with concerns, I recommend the HSE FAQ:-
http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/faq-mdf.htm

Money quote: “The most common binder for boards intended for dry environments is urea-formaldehyde. Other binders may be used depending on the grade of board and its intended end-use. For example, melamine urea-formaldehyde, phenolic resins and polymeric diphenylmethane diisocyanate (PMDI) are generally used in boards that require an improved moisture resistance. PMDI binder is not formaldehyde-based and consequently does not emit any formaldehyde. The exact constituents of an MDF board will vary from product to product.”

and

“In Europe, the majority of manufacturers produce only low emission boards. There are some boards available on the market with extremely low formaldehyde emissions and some with ‘no added formaldehyde’, for example those using formaldehyde free binders such as PMDI, i.e. these boards will only have the naturally occurring emissions from the wood itself. Manufacturers from outside Europe may however produce boards that have higher emissions.”

So, buy branded goods made in the EU with the appropriate markings, and preferably MR MDF. Not hard, is it? Agree with Dr Bob that the issue was most likely paint-related, though the article claims the VOC levels were “4x acceptable” after many weeks of storage in a barn?? One of many questions I’d appreciate clarification on... Also did the supplying company not have the stripped out materials independently tested?? If not not why not, and if so where are the results?

FWIW I’ve only used water-based paints for the last 12 years or so, and the improvements over that time have been significant.

More to come in this, fingers crossed.

P

I read the piece and thought it was a very poor piece of journalism. Is the MDF at fault or the finish or a combination of the two? What's the part about some solvent the installers were using? I also understood that EU sourced MDF had negligible amounts of free formaldehyde these days. It would have been better to string a coherent story together and get a few facts. Problem is this seems to be a case of 'don't let the facts get in the way of a good story'.

 

[AES]

Thanks for the info Peter. Very interesting (and thanks for your "not always 10 minute videos" too).

Look forward to more info (not that I'm personally "involved", I don't make furniture and don't use a lot of MDF).

I dunno acewoodturner, at least the stuff stays flat and warp free! It may be that "that reconstituted stuff" has some advantages - e.g. when living in Singapore I had some rosewood furniture custom made (not a piece of ply, etc, in sight) but it's suffered terribly in a European centrally heated home. "Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice" and all that.

 

[AES]

P[/quote]

I read the piece and thought it was a very poor piece of journalism.[/quote]

Agreed, but it seems to me often par for the course with just about all journalists - example, I don't know much about furniture, but aviation is/was my profession for over 50 years. Often when I read stuff in the papers about airlines or aircraft, especially about an air crash, it's usually about 99.9% carp.

 

[Rorschach]

If I had £18K to blow on bedroom furniture I would want it made from real wood and not that reconstituted stuff!

Good luck filling a bedroom then :lol:

 

[sammy.se]

If I had £18K to blow on bedroom furniture I would want it made from real wood and not that reconstituted stuff!

Good luck filling a bedroom then :lol:

Wait, are you saying that you can't get bedroom furniture made from hardwood, for £18k?? I find that hard to believe.

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[Rorschach]

If I had £18K to blow on bedroom furniture I would want it made from real wood and not that reconstituted stuff!

Good luck filling a bedroom then :lol:

Wait, are you saying that you can't get bedroom furniture made from hardwood, for £18k?? I find that hard to believe.

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Bespoke furniture, made to measure, with no man-made materials, not a chance.

 

[tomatwark]

In May last year I was using MDF to make some jigs, bought from big suppliers

I ended up with a really bad reaction to it, I now have to take 4 times the daily dose of anti histamines to work with any formaldehyde based glues or boards.

I have found the worst reactions I get is from veneered boards, I wonder if the import of this is not as closely regulated as it should be.

I don't have a problem with MR MDF

Although in this case I would be inclinded to agreed that some of the problem was more likely to be the paint off gassing.

 

[Rorschach]

In May last year I was using MDF to make some jigs, bought from big suppliers

I ended up with a really bad reaction to it, I now have to take 4 times the daily dose of anti histamines to work with any formaldehyde based glues or boards.

I have found the worst reactions I get is from veneered boards, I wonder if the import of this is not as closely regulated as it should be.

I don't have a problem with MR MDF

Although in this case I would be inclinded to agreed that some of the problem was more likely to be the paint off gassing.

Slightly off topic but what anti his and what dose do you take?

 

[tomatwark]

Cetirizine Hydrochloride, I take 4 tablets a day, when I need to.

The standard does is one a day.


THIS IS UNDER THE INSTRUCTION OF A DERMATOLOGIST AFTER VARIOUS BLOOD TESTS ETC.

 

[Rorschach]

Might I suggest you switch to Loratadine. At 40mg you are close to the overdose limit for Cetirizine where you may start to get adverse effects. With Loratadine, studies show no adverse effects even when taking up to 15x the daily dose.

I take Loratadine for this reason, I know I can safely take 1 tablet per 2 hours if I needed to while still being well under the limit.

 

[Setch]

Interesting. I used cetirazine as I found it more effective, but that was limiting myself to the recommended dosage.

I have accidentally overdosed on cetirazine, and the consequences were like a really bad hangover, not keen to repeat that!