oil/Arkansas stones

[ED65]

I've read about white spirit and kerosene, but I find it a bit extreme. Might work well but not sure safety wise...

My feeling exactly. I've haven't been as careful to avoid solvent exposure through my life as I could have been and now I want to avoid incidental exposure to white spirit (which I use quite a bit) as much as poss. So although I do like how it works as a fine honing fluid I've stopped using it. Of course you can use it and wear gloves, but I don't want to don gloves every time I hone.

I'm waiting for classichandtools to have them in stock (in march) and will order a hard black. I'll then give you some feedback
If happy with it, I'll get also a translucent one.

In the meantime do try a hard strop! You won't regret it, I promise.

 

[ED65]

I'm not sure what the chemical formulation of WD40 is, but I'm pretty sure it's not the same as 3-in-1.

<looks around carefully for WD-40 spies> It's basically a mixture of stoddard solvent, oil and a small dash of petroleum jelly (the final ingredient that made it suitable for its original purpose, rust-proofing Atlas missiles).

I used to use 3-in-1, but following a tip on this forum (thank you, whoever gave it!) I tried a bottle of baby oil...

You're welcome But seriously this suggestion goes way back, I'm sure to way before my time and multiple people will have mentioned it over the years.

It's likely one of those things where you pick it up from the person you pick it up from, and they in turn learned it from someone else, ad infinitum. Although bright sorts could well independently come to the realisation on their own, or find it out practically when being experimental.

The India stone can slurp up a bit of oil, and also tends to do most of the sharpening work (the natural Arks would be a bit more frugal, being impermeable). My polishing stone (an Inigo Jones slate hone) barely uses any at all. I find that the slate just needs a wipe at the end of a workshop day, but the India needs lifting, wiping all over, and mopping up of the oil that's seeped through and leaked out of it's bottom.

Did you buy your India new or was it a car boot purchase? This doesn't sound like the behaviour of a stock India. I wonder if the previous owner soaked out the stone, or perhaps you cleaned it a little too thoroughly if it was black and filthy when you got it, like they all seem to be secondhand!

 

[Noho12C]

I have a strop and quite like it (using green compound). Very efficient on chisels to refresh an edge. Though (but it might be just me) I feel that the strop won't give a fresh edge for as long as a fine stone (be it oil or water)
Maybe the strop is a too fine grit and the edge dull more quickly ?

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[Noho12C]

I've read about white spirit and kerosene, but I find it a bit extreme. Might work well but not sure safety wise...

My feeling exactly. I've haven't been as careful to avoid solvent exposure through my life as I could have been and now I want to avoid incidental exposure to white spirit (which I use quite a bit) as much as poss. So although I do like how it works as a fine honing fluid I've stopped using it. Of course you can use it and wear gloves, but I don't want to don gloves every time I hone.

Yes, exactly. Even though they are useful and efficient, they are pretty nasty product. And I got rid of my waterstones as I wanted something easier to use. Don't want to switch to putting gloves and respiratory mask !

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[RogerS]

I find these threads very interesting. I do have Scary Sharp but I'm such a lazy sod, I simply touch up my chisels on the Worksharp. Such a shame that the manufacturer in the US insist on pointing people towards Rutlands even though the latter have delisted Worksharp.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The India stone can slurp up a bit of oil, and also tends to do most of the sharpening work (the natural Arks would be a bit more frugal, being impermeable). My polishing stone (an Inigo Jones slate hone) barely uses any at all. I find that the slate just needs a wipe at the end of a workshop day, but the India needs lifting, wiping all over, and mopping up of the oil that's seeped through and leaked out of it's bottom.

Did you buy your India new or was it a car boot purchase? This doesn't sound like the behaviour of a stock India. I wonder if the previous owner soaked out the stone, or perhaps you cleaned it a little too thoroughly if it was black and filthy when you got it, like they all seem to be secondhand!

It was bought new, along with an Emir box for it, back when I first started home woodworking in the mid 1980s. After a few years of use (maybe two or three) I noticed that the drawer in which the boxed stone was kept had developed a oily stain, and examination showed the oilstone box to be saturated with oil. At the time, I used 3-in-1 on it, but wiped it clean after use.

Speculating a bit with the benefit of hindsight, it could be that the residual 3-in-1 in the pores of the stone were acting as a solvent on the oil fill, eventually removing most or all of it, to soak through the wood of the box (beechwood, by the way) and the drawer bottom. Also with the benefit of hindsight, what I should have done is throw away the box, make another, seal it with several thinned coats of varnish or similar, and assiduously wipe out the box and stone after use.

However, I didn't. I wrapped it in a plastic bag, and bought some waterstones, which were very fashionable in the woodworking press at the time. That was both good and bad, because the 6000 grit waterstone I bought was much finer than the India, and taught me what 'sharp' really could be. I can still remember the shock at the ease with which a 1/2" chisel pared a piece of pine end-grain, and the cleanness of the cut surface. However, as I sharpened at the bench, the water management problem was a bind, so after a few years I blew some more hard-earned on a pair of Spyderco ceramic stones.

They served well for many a year, until a comment on this forum some years ago that India stones cut far faster than the medium Spyderco, so I dug out the old India, and gave it a try. It's true - the India does cut faster, but the medium Spyderco leaves a finer edge. Conequently, I sought a polishing stone solution; the most cost effective seemed to be the Inigo Jones slate (my inner tightwad rebelled at the price of black Arks!), which after a bit of experimentation, I've stuck with. For now ....

 

[ED65]

Though (but it might be just me) I feel that the strop won't give a fresh edge for as long as a fine stone (be it oil or water)

That's not just you. How far the edge has degraded, the steel type (different steels have subtly different wear mechanics), the stropping compound or metal polish used and, not least, the number of strokes done all play a part in whether you can strop to maintain an edge.

We can take a leaf from carvers, many of whom maintain their knives and chisels by stropping only for ages and ages (months in some cases). But they can do this in part because they strop very frequently, sometimes after just a few minutes. So while we can do the same it's most viable for chisels, and less suited as a sole means to stay sharp for plane irons.

Bottom line is that wear rounds an edge (or creates what is called the 'wear bevel'), and the honing routine must be capable of efficiently taking this slightly rounded edge and returning it to a sharper apex.

Maybe the strop is a too fine grit and the edge dull more quickly ?

This has been investigated a few times by very dedicated sharpeners (including most recently a member here, D_W) and it does appear that an edge lasts much longer, and lasts better, if you take it up very high. While there's nothing wrong with an edge created on X or Y that are, say, 1-3k and they can be useable apparently you'll get a significantly longer interval before the next honing if you go finer (assuming the complete removal of the previous wear bevel).

 

[ED65]

Did you buy your India new or was it a car boot purchase? This doesn't sound like the behaviour of a stock India. I wonder if the previous owner soaked out the stone, or perhaps you cleaned it a little too thoroughly if it was black and filthy when you got it, like they all seem to be secondhand!

It was bought new, along with an Emir box for it, back when I first started home woodworking in the mid 1980s.

Interesting! If you want to try to sort out this behaviour it exhibits you could do worse than rub in some Vaseline, and if it seems to help at all then do a full fill as recommended in the old days.

I found a surface treatment transformed an open-textured dry stone (one of the bog-standard grey ones) so just that can do something. But an India does have a much different structure.

 

[AndyT]

Lurching back a page or so to ED65's handy summary of oiliness, I'd just like to agree that in my experience a fine, non-porous stone needs something thinner than 3-in-1. 3-in-1 is fine for my everyday Washita but on some other slatey stones I can feel it separating the steel from the stone.
My easy fix has been to use WD40, just because it's there in the workshop in easy reach.
But I've now followed Phil P's advice and ordered a lifetime's supply of isopropyl alcohol to try instead. I've been following Phil's posts carefully for a while now and I've come to the conclusion that he knows what he's talking about!

I can also use it to make my own shellac mix and for general cleaning.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Well. Than you.
Seriously, you'll find uses for IPA - it cleans off most sticky label residues, it softens hot melt glue, it works well on hard stones, it goes in your windscreen wash, it's a hand rub for coronavirus ...

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Interesting! If you want to try to sort out this behaviour it exhibits you could do worse than rub in some Vaseline, and if it seems to help at all then do a full fill as recommended in the old days.

I found a surface treatment transformed an open-textured dry stone (one of the bog-standard grey ones) so just that can do something. But an India does have a much different structure.

That's a thought, though as you pointed out a couple of pages ago, adding the vaseline seems to slow the stone's cutting speed, and I rather like the fast cut (well, faster than the Spyderco medium ceramic, anyway) of the India. Now I know the problem, I can manage it using that other essential piece of sharpening equipment - a roll of kitchen towel.

All sharpening methods have their downsides, and I reckon finding the method that works for you is as much about finding the method with downsides you can live with as with finding the perfect method (which, as we know, doesn't exist, or we'd all be using it). I can live with wiping up some leaked oil; on the upside, I'd rather have to wipe oil off tools than water, since the residue will give some short-term measure of rust protection. To date, I've not found oily hands a problem either - kitchen roll, again.

We're getting into very fine lines between one method and another, here, though!

 

[ED65]

3-in-1 is fine for my everyday Washita but on some other slatey stones I can feel it separating the steel from the stone.

On the slate I have that's a keeper because it was oily when I got it I tried it with oil first, liquid paraffin and after that baby oil, then with white spirit and it worked okay with the last. But I needed to flatten at least one face so I cleaned it thoroughly during the process. Since I was then, er, back to a clean slate :mrgreen: I tried it with water and it's definitely to its liking.

I can also use it to make my own shellac mix and for general cleaning.

Yes, and it may be less toxic than a version of meths which is no bad thing.

One other definite advantage of isopropyl alcohol over some brands of meths is the smell; some methylated spirit doesn't smell bad, but others are ghastly! And as I formerly used a lot of the stuff to clean acrylic paint off mixing palettes I had plenty of time to grow to hate it and it puts me off using it.

Now I know the problem, I can manage it using that other essential piece of sharpening equipment - a roll of kitchen towel.
...
To date, I've not found oily hands a problem either - kitchen roll, again.

Very handy in the workshop it is. Although I have an oily rag of much oiliness and a shop towel I do still use it in these same ways, also use folded halves or quarters to apply finish a lot, and have buffed wood with it many a time.

We're getting into very fine lines between one method and another, here, though!

Well there doesn't have to be a dividing line between systems since you can mix and match, as many do to one degree or another. When I do use my slate I go from dry (diamond plate), to watery on the slate, to greasy (strop), but one could just as easily go oily, watery, oily.

 

[Noho12C]

Hmmm, IPA and meths aren't the same ? I bought a 5L bottle on Amazon (the purple one) to use with shellac and it definitely smells. Not a pleasant smell at all.

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[Phil Pascoe]

Methyl alcohol, isopropyl alcohol. Not the same.

 

[ED65]

Hmmm, IPA and meths aren't the same ? I bought a 5L bottle on Amazon (the purple one) to use with shellac and it definitely smells. Not a pleasant smell at all.

Methylated spirits is 'spirits' (old name for ethyl alcohol, same stuff as in yer booze) that have been made undrinkable or denatured by the addition of a small amount of methyl alcohol (AKA methanol or wood alcohol, which is highly toxic). Hence the name of the American equivalent of meths, denatured alcohol, although the two are not typically identical products functionally they're the same.

Isopropyl alcohol on the other hand is literally that, and while not everyone will find the smell to their liking it's not generally found to be offensive; it may remind you of the doctor's surgery when you were little, or the nurse's room at school.

 

[jeremyduncombe]

I’m glad you have explained what IPA is. I was wondering why anyone would waste good India Pale Ale on a sharpening stone.

 

[ED65]

Yes isn't it unfortunate they share the same TLA?! The first time I saw it mentioned in a thread I thought India Pale Ale was what was being recommended :lol:

Oddly, this isn't completely beyond the realm of possibility because some do use cheap vodka or similar as a light honing fluid. This might sound bonkers (and certainly it is compared to plain water) but actually even decent vodka costs less per ml than many a commercial honing fluid.

And the most expensive ones are so pricey it can literally be cheaper to hone using a single-malt whisky :shock:

 

[Ttrees]

Would a single malt work if it was diluted 1:24 though?

I've made up my mind to give plain water a go on a soft ark, and see how I get on.
I have a washita to try if it doesn't work out, as there's evidence of others have done so before.

Having nearly used up a mega can of DP-60 (a poor man's WD-40), the hone is getting gunky compared to the latter.

Hoping the water will give better visibility, as that oil gets caught up in the burr making it difficult to check for consistency, without the constant wiping with dusty shavings. (too mean for TP)
I reckon any time lost without the lubricant would be made up for here.

Is this one reason why you chose to use the IPA?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Would a single malt work if it was diluted 1:24 though?

I've made up my mind to give plain water a go on a soft ark, and see how I get on.
I have a washita to try if it doesn't work out, as there's evidence of others have done so before.

Having nearly used up a mega can of DP-60 (a poor man's WD-40), the hone is getting gunky compared to the latter.

Hoping the water will give better visibility, as that oil gets caught up in the burr making it difficult to check for consistency, without the constant wiping with dusty shavings. (too mean for TP)
I reckon any time lost without the lubricant would be made up for here.

Is this one reason why you chose to use the IPA?

Something I found when using the ceramic stones was that the water I used on them tended to clump into large blobs and not really spread out. Adding a small drop or two of washing-up liquid to the water (literally just a couple of drops to half a pint or so of water - not enough to cause all the bubbles) killed the surface tension and cured this tendency.

I don't know whether an Ark would react to water in the same way as the ceramic stone did, but if the water does tend to form blobs on the surface, a drop or two of Fairy liquid or whatever would probably help.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Is this one reason why you chose to use the IPA?

I use it primarily because it's clean and easy to wipe off (usually on my clothes) but also because it's less slippery than any oil on a very fine non porous stone. No danger of rust either (not that that worries me - I use water stones, mainly ), and also because I have litres of the stuff. It's very easy to find uses for it. Good hand rub for coronavirus ............ which is why it's unavailable at the moment.