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By Farmer Giles
#1189857
What a lovely machine! I love big old lumps like this - very jealous!

In terms of oil, most engine oils will be fine, especially the older variety 20w50 etc. The iso 32 hydraulic oil you can get from most farming shops is a good cheap alternative especially if it sups a bit.

Don't use some of the newer gear oils EP GL5 for example in old machines that are likely to contain brass/bronze components. They have a surfacing additive that works fine in all steel gearboxes but grabs brass etc, and can cause premature wear. It sticks to the surface, and is supposed to improve wear, but with soft metals it gets scuffed off and drags a bit of metal with it.

If you want to go vintage there are loads of oil suppliers, Withams, Millers, etc. If there are any old labels indicating what oil to use on the machine, you can usually find a very close modern equivalent, for example Shell Tellus 22 is easy, it is a ISO 22 gear oil and you can buy that. There is a place on the Wirral that will blend oil to any viscosity etc. I forget the name of the place now, there are probably others but they tend to want you to buy in quantity, 25l minimum.

But I would go for ISO 32 or 20w50 to begin with.

Cheers
Andy
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By Rhyolith
#1190214
Thanks for that, I will check what the engine oil I already have is. It be good just to have one big vat for the Myford and the Milnes.

What about grease? It has a lot of grease nipples all over the place.
By Cheshirechappie
#1190258
Nice machine, that.

Grease nipples - actually, they're probably not grease nipples, but oil nipples. Exactly the same principle, but use an oil gun with something like a medium viscosity straight lubricating oil (don't use engine oil, it has a high proportion of detergents and other additives that work very well in a high-temperature high-speed environment, but not so well in a low-temperature low-speed one).

You can get special way oils for machine tools, designed for use in high-pressure very low-speed places like the traverses of milling machines. Especially worth it on the vertical traverse (knee to column) because it'll stay put and not run off into the chip tray.

Keep your eyes peeled for a good milling vice. Won't be cheap, but don't be tempted by anything small and weedy. Half the secret of good results with a milling machine is a really rigid job-holding (and tool-holding) set-up.
By heimlaga
#1190431
Last winter I stumbled on a magnificent Värnamo horizontal and vertical combination mill for 500 euros. With digital measurements and all.
It weighed areong 3000 kilos and I had nowhere to put it and no money for repairs so I told an aquintance and he bought it. I rekon he ended paying at least 2000 more in parts and new spindles plus a vice and some tooling before he could make anything with it and I didn't have that amount of money either.

Instead I bought his old 14" metal shaper. He sold it for a very friendly price and held it for a year waiting until I had accumulated the little money he wanted. Just over scrap value. At 800 kilos or so it is light enough for my tractor to lift and it uses much cheaper tooling.
I rekon it will do 80% of the milling jobs I need. It is slow of cause but that doesn't matter much when it is a hobby.
The remaining 20% I can afford to pay a professional for.
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By Rhyolith
#1190542
Cheshirechappie wrote: Grease nipples - actually, they're probably not grease nipples, but oil nipples. Exactly the same principle, but use an oil gun with something like a medium viscosity straight lubricating oil (don't use engine oil, it has a high proportion of detergents and other additives that work very well in a high-temperature high-speed environment, but not so well in a low-temperature low-speed one).

You can get special way oils for machine tools, designed for use in high-pressure very low-speed places like the traverses of milling machines. Especially worth it on the vertical traverse (knee to column) because it'll stay put and not run off into the chip tray.

There are two types of nipples I have found on the machine so far:

These domed ones (these are at the front just under table)
ImageHenry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

and these flat headed ones (this one is just under the table on the right hand side):
ImageHenry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

Looking at the kind of connectors on my grease guns they seem like they would fit the domed variety of nipple quite well. Is this a coincidence or are they great nipples? There seem to be rather more of this sort of nipple than the flat kind.

If they are all oil nipples, how do I inject oil into them? I only the following that are designed (i think) to inject oil rather than just dump it, and I think only the latter is deigned for oil (can i use a grease gun for oil?):
ImageGrease Guns by Rhyolith, on Flickr
ImageEnots High Pressure Oil Can by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I terms of oil I could do with a recommendation of where to source it from and specifically which oil to get... I am assuming such oil would be better for my Myford ML4 too?

Cheshirechappie wrote: Keep your eyes peeled for a good milling vice. Won't be cheap, but don't be tempted by anything small and weedy. Half the secret of good results with a milling machine is a really rigid job-holding (and tool-holding) set-up

Have had a quick look on eBay, your right the machine vices are expensive! Looks like £100 budget is required to get anything decent. The table on the Milnes is 30x8" (bit over 8", see pic), I am assuming the spacing of the slots is standard, it came with plenty of bolts for the slots.

ImageHenry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

Is this the kind of thing I should be looking for: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pratt-Burnet ... 1438.l2649
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By DTR
#1190571
On the Myford, NUTO 32 oil is recommended for every oiling point (regardless of whether its fitted with a grease nipple). If I remember tonight I'll take a photo of the stuff I use. In theory you should use way oil on the slides as it sticks rather than running off. However it is generally considered too sticky to use on small machines like a Myford. I don't know if your Milnes qualifies as a small machine!

As for vices, Harold Hall's write-up might be worth a read:

http://www.homews.co.uk/page288.html

More often than not, I follow his example and not use a vice at all (that's not to say you don't need one.....)
By Cheshirechappie
#1190619
Certainly true that there are many ways to hold work on a milling machine, and having (or accumulating) a good range of clamps, tee-bolts and spacers and packing is well-nigh essential, but a good vice does hold an awful lot. The one you linked too would be just the job; other high quality makes to look out for are Abwood and Jones & Shipman, but there are plenty of others. You can buy fancy versions that swivel and tilt, but a plain one does about 95% of jobs perfectly adequately, and they tend to be more rigid. Try to find one that still has its handle - saves messing about with adjustable spanners.

Of the grease/oil guns you illustrate, the sort without handles could be cleaned out and used with oil - look up 'Wanner Oil Guns' for top quality current versions (at top prices, too!). Fill with oil, place nozzle over cleaned oil nipple, and push. The oil pressure generated pushes down the little steel ball in the oil nipple, opening the way for oil to enter what it's supposed to lubricate. When you stop pushing, the spring in the oil nipple reseats the ball, sealing the nipple against ingress of dirt. (In theory - stripping some older machines can reveal quite a lot of dirt in oilways.) Also worth bearing in mind is that even good quality oilguns tend to leak, so it's worth finding a jam-jar or similar to stand it in.

As you clean up the machine, you may find a plate on it somewhere that gives the recommended grades of oil for the various gearboxes and slides; that's not uncommon. Failing that, the NUTO 32 that DTR mentioned - or equivalent - would be a pretty good all-round bet.
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By Farmer Giles
#1190651
Nuto 32 is just Mobil's brand of a decent ISO 32 hydraulic oil.

£10 a litre from the bay if you want nuto 32, or if you look up smith and allan iso 32 slideway oil then you can get 5 litres for 15 quid. I doubt if there is any noticeable difference. Just ISO 32 hydraulic oil from your local farm suppliers will do it.

I feel oil may become a bit like sharpening :)

BTW if you go on the Model Engineering forum, there are many members who use the older motor oils on their myfords, one has used GTX for 20+ years with no appreciable wear :) I don't suggest you necessarily do this but you won't do much/any damage if you do on an old thumper and is better than nowt until you get the correct oil.

In my Colchester Triumph 2000, I use ISO 32 in the headstock and screw cutting gearbox. I haven't done this randomly, Colchester recommended Shell Tellus 27 which is the same as Shell Tellus 32, the former is pre-ISO ratings. Shell Tellus 32 is ISO 32 hydraulic oil, and generic ISO 32 oil it is not expensive, which is good because the big lathe takes gallons. As produced, the headstock oil is pumped, I have added a filter to the system, basically a car filter, I did this after seeing the debris in the oil when I changed it, having said that, the previous owner had broken gear speed selectors so it was to be expected.

oilfilter3.JPG


In the apron I use ISO 68 slideway oil as it is the modern equivalent of Tonna 33 as recommended by Colchester. It has a push button oiling system, so squirts oil in several locations if you press a plunger on the apron. However a friend suggested I use suds in the apron, why I said? It will find its way in there and fill up the apron anyway he says, it happens to all Colchesters, he's not wrong :D

So to cut a long story short, if your not brand conscious, then ISO 32 hydraulic oil will do most of what you want gearbox wise. ISO 68 is a bit gloopy and sticky but is good on slideways, especially vertical slideways. I would probably use ISO 32 on horizontal slideways but the 68 stays put if you have a damp atmosphere like I do. You can buy both from Smith and Allan and other similar suppliers.

EDIT - I forgot I have some really sticky ISO 220 for the vertical slides. ISO 68 is thickish but the 220 is like treacle, I go around with a take-away tray full of it around this time of year and lather up the vertical slide ways on the mills with a brush otherwise I get terrible condensation corrosion.

Cheers
Andy
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By bugbear
#1190805
Rhyolith wrote:

Its 1940s - 50s and apparently a high grade machine http://www.lathes.co.uk/milnesmiller/ (thanks DTR for finding that)

Having watched quite a few machine repair/renovation videos on youtube, a common theme is that the lubrication systems don't work, or don't work completely.

The systems are often some kind of pump, with logs of little tubes (made from ductile copper or brass) leading to places-that-need-oil.

These little tubes have a nasty habit of breaking, kinking, or getting pulled out from their attachments.

Have a good look around before running the machine, since running the machine without lubrication is an oft-mentioned caused of damage.

Turning by hand is recommended for testing - I've seen some hilarious results of testing pumped lube systems with the covers off. :D

BugBear
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By Rhyolith
#1191325
Having had a closer look I don't think it actually has a lubrication system. I thought these tubes in the table were that, but I think they just come from nipples, though which nipples is still a mystery!

ImageUnder the Bed by Rhyolith, on Flickr]

Probably need to start trying them. Would it be a good idea to squirt paraffin down them to clean them out? and work out what goes where... I have only used WD40 so far to keep the moisture out and allow for some testing until I get some appropriate oil.

Also found a another problem to solve. I think one of the gear selectors is bent as it physically cannot go into any but one of the positions shown on the gear guide. See pictures.

ImageHenry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr
ImageHenry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr
ImageHenry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I also found out that this thing has a powered down-feed for the headstock (obvious if you actually read the dials :roll: ), however I cannot get this to work. So tried to figure out how the power got to the down-feed wheel... which baffled me.

ImageHenry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I realised last night that it was flipping obvious, its inside that silver telescopic thing.... Oh my god #-o ! It turns out that there is no drive getting that far, so I think it know now where those random rusty gears that came with it are from! The gearbox on top of the headstock.
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By Rhyolith
#1191326
That was a while ago, have since finished most of the external cleaning an put the bed back together.

ImageHenry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

This brought up another problem. The bed feels stiff (equally along its whole run), so need to figure out why that is. In all likelyhood its the wheels on each end, the dialled one especially felt stiff when assembling it... so will give those a dismantle, clean and re-lube defiantly. The other thing is that I have not set that tensioner thing right (the thing the allows adjustment for wear), it moved during dismantling and i kinda guess where to set it (by sliding the bed back and forth till it felt right). Is there a method for setting these?

The last known issue at the moment is the suds tank, which is part of the casting so cannot be opened up. Its full of whats basically mud with metal shavings in it (though, no rust amazing). I have opened the plug draining it and shovelled as much of the dung out I can out as i can get at with a trowel through those two holes in the base (either side of pillar that supports the table). However I have no idea how to get at the rest, theres still a lot in there...
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By Farmer Giles
#1191334
I used an airline to clear out the oil journals on my tom senior mill, they were full of old solidified grease as a previous owner had incorrectly assumed they were grease nipples not oilers. It was very satisfying, a bit like squeezing a huge blackhead :) I didn't have those tubes though, mine were drilled into the casting. If they are delicate then I would be careful with the air, paraffin shouldn't hurt it.
Last edited by Farmer Giles on 07 Dec 2017, 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
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By DTR
#1191368
I wonder if the little pipes are wick oilers, maybe? They use a wick (like a candle) to draw the oil by capillary action. If so the wicks might need replacing.

I think the power downfeed works like the change gears on a lathe, where the appropriate gears have to be arranged manually rather than by lever. Hopefully there's some indication of where the gears have to go! Presumably there must be some kind of engagement clutch or half-nut though?

If the table is stiff, you could try backing off the gib strip(s) to rule that out. Without the screw installed you should be able to slide the table up and down by hand.
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By Rhyolith
#1192328
I only have a manual compressor kismet-trolly-restoration-round-2-t106281.html The threads on the oilers look like 1/8" BSP so might be able to hook it up to them using a hosetail.

How do I properly set up the "gib" strip? Is it just a case of guessing?

I have started taking the table apart again. One of the drive cranks its defiantly stiff so going to start with that. However it needs some special type of spanner I think.

ImageTable Drive Nuts by Rhyolith, on Flickr
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By Rhyolith
#1193365
Have found out that the nipples are 1/8 BSP threads, which is the same as the hosetails etc on my pumps. So I have been able to apply a fair bit of pressure using the Kismet trolley to flush out the oil pipes (it is satifying :) ). Doing this I have been able to work out where they come from, the three copper pipes under the bed all come from one nipple on the front for example (cannot see any evidence of any wicks).

I am waiting on some parts to patch up some leaks in my Kismet compressor and the will continue to clean them out.

One little mystery is the two nipples on the left side under the table, they both lead to the exact same place, air came out under the depth slider and the table slider for both. Is this just a subtle of saying these need twice as much oil?