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By IWW
#1334032
Yes, I first saw the 'open' dovetails on Bill's work, too, but am in the "don't like" camp. They look a bit too contrived and precious to my eye, but beauty is in the eye of beholders, and we are all different (thank goodness), so all power to you for the courage to follow your own tastes and extra merit points for executing them so well!

Knowing how difficult it is to peen the more brittle brasses, I'm most impressed by how tight you got those D/Ts - you had a good bit of metal to move, so I imagine you had at least a few moments of panic?! And I have to say, you are coming along at an exponential rate with your plane making. When you said you'd had no metal-working experience before starting the panel plane I found it hard to believe, but your rapid development shows us you are simply a 'natural'. :)

As to "filling" the bows, I think it would be pretty difficult too, but you might get away with it better than you think. I'm always surprised at how neat & straight the brass/steel edges are when I file off the beaten-down steel pins. My peening is a lot neater & more efficient now, but back when I did my first couple, they looked like a right mess by the time I'd finished hammering away & I thought I'd have wavy edges on my tails, but they all filed-off to leave pretty straight lines. I'd be inclined to make a practice bow with some scrap steel & brass & beat it up just to see how much distortion you do get. Now that you're a journeyman peener, I'd reckon you can move the steel with a fair degree of precision, so that you cause minimum distortion of the brass. You'd probably have to allow another mm protrusion of the steel to make sure you've got enough to push up into the centre point of the bow. A lot more peening, and a lot more filing to clean up - don't think my shoulders would like it! :(
Cheers,
Ian
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By Hattori-Hanzo
#1334086
Thanks for the reply Ian much appreciated.

While I'm really happy with how this plane performs, it takes a super shaving and is a joy to use on a shooting board I am disappointed that the dovetails didn't fill fully.

I think I over did the angle on the double dovetail and as you say had a lot of material to try and push over.

You can see from this photo the gap at the side of the steel pins.

Image

In one of Bill's videos he explains that on early mitre planes the dovetail angle would be minimal and on some it would almost be vertical.
I've tried to accentuate the dovetail by using a steeper angle but this was probably my downfall.

My peining also leave a lot to be desired, the brass I used on this plane didn't help and the thicker 6mm sole was difficult to manipulate.
It's amazing the difference 1mm makes to peining.

Like you say when you stand back and look at the plane body after peining its a worrying mess, at least mine was :)

Image

but when all is done and you start to file away the surplus amazingly it all starts to come together.

I'd definitely like to try and fill the bow and the extra peining practise would be welcome but I need to finishes these other projects first too ;)

Cheers.
By IWW
#1334247
Just looking at the pictures, the gaps don't look too horrendous, Hattori, but they are big by the standards of a separate-sided plane where you can cut the dovetails so they are a tight fit. You had to end up with a wide gap at the tops of the tails because the only way to assemble was to push the sides straight down. I can't see any other way to do it, and presume that's how all continuous-side mitres were done. I've often thought of making a mitre plane for the fun of it, and have always wondered how I'd handle a continuous side. How did you mark out the pins on the sole, for e.g.? It's obviously not possible to scribe them directly off the sides. The only way I have thought of is to make a long cardboard template that I can use to lay out both pins & tails by wrapping it around the sides, then opening it out o lay out the pins on the sole.

I had some big gaps to deal with on the panel-plane I made from the kit. It came with sides & soles pre-cut, as I mentioned earlier, but the cutting was very rough:
2.jpg


The person what done the cutting also thought back-to-front from the typical way of cutting the pins & tails, the "tails' were cut on the sole:
3.jpg


I would have cut the existing mess off completely & started over with fresh tails & pins, if there had been enough spare metal, but there wasn't, so I battled on. It was made all the more difficult because there were no scribe-lines to work to, it was all guess, file, & try 'til they fit. The amount allowed for peening was also very skimpy, so I had some anxious moments closing some of the larger gaps. Like your plane, it all turned out better than I expected, given the battle I'd had, but certainly not perfect. I am still chasing the perfect job and I'm up to plane #15. I've come close, but there have always been one or two little visible lines or pin holes that didn't fill properly. I hope to complete my apprenticeship one day!

Hattori-Hanzo wrote:...... In one of Bill's videos he explains that on early mitre planes the dovetail angle would be minimal and on some it would almost be vertical.
I've tried to accentuate the dovetail by using a steeper angle but this was probably my downfall.....

......It's amazing the difference 1mm makes to peining........


Yes, you sure don't need much of an angle for the dovetails to hold together very securely. As I said earlier, the angle is more for visual than structural effect. For an all-steel plane, I'd make the angle very shallow, and file a 'notch' in the corners of the tails, like this:
3b.jpg


On one small plane I was making, I forgot to file a chamfer on the brass tails on one side. I'd started peening when I remembered. #-o I had hardly begun to fill any of the gaps, so I thought I'd wriggle them apart. But no way were they going to separate without risking severe distortion, so I just hammered them up as they were. After I'd finished & filed off the waste, I was amazed to find I could not easily pick the side that I'd not chamfered from the side I did! Both have quite distinct angles when viewed from the sole side.

As long as all the gaps are filled, it doesn't matter how wonky the notches are for an all-steel body. I notched the pins on this plane far more than necessary (a conclusion I quickly came to when hammering them up!) but you can't see any of the notches, just a couple of faint lines where the shoulders of a couple of tail sockets weren't as tight as they should have been. :(
b.jpg


I think there's an ideal amount of extra metal one should allow for peening. To little is obviously disastrous, but you can also have too much. You've allowed what looks like close to 3mm on your mitre plane, whereas I rarely allow more than 1.5 mm (although with big gaps to fill like on those straight dovetails, I might have added another .5 or so). If there's too much extra metal (& this applies to rivets as well), it's hard to get the metal to come over evenly & fill the whole gap from the bottom up. It's too easy to pound it over so the gap looks closed, but after filing off, you discover nasty voids. Took me a few planes to figure this out & learn to judge the right amount. It's as much art as science because it depends on the actual metals you're working with as well as complications like curving sides when a pin falls on a bend......

But it's all god fun. I think you are learning much faster than I did - I'd give you top marks for all your efforts so far (at least what you've shown us - surely you've made a few good blunders along the way?! :D )

Cheers,
Ian
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By Hattori-Hanzo
#1334433
Cheers Ian.

Just to clarify the gaps at the top of the dovetails are only filed 1 -1.5 mm deep to create the "double dovetail" effect.
Beyond that the dovetail is straight. Difficult for me to explain but these pictures show what I mean.

Image

You can see that if I had not filed this material away the dovetail would be vertical.

Image

When peining, this gap gets filled to create the look. This is what I was referring to when I said I had over done the angle.

Here is a picture before I filed it away.

Image

You can of course keep them vertical but adding the double dovetail adds to the mystery of how the joint comes together.
This is where Bill says on early mitre planes only a very shallow angle was added.

EDIT....
Just reading your post again and I think this process is what your referring to as a "notch" on one of your planes?

For marking the pins I placed the completed body of the plane on top of the sole and carefully scribed around each pin.

Image

Because the bottom of the pin is a straight cut this is the easiest way to transfer them over.

I think there's an ideal amount of extra metal one should allow for peening. To little is obviously disastrous, but you can also have too much


If there's too much extra metal (& this applies to rivets as well), it's hard to get the metal to come over evenly & fill the whole gap from the bottom up. It's too easy to pound it over so the gap looks closed, but after filing off, you discover nasty voids


I think you're absolutely right and this is exactly the problem I had.
I think I left too much metal to peen, it looked as though the gaps where filled but in fact the metal had rolled over and left a void right on the join line.

Definitely going to reduce the amount of metal for peining next time. Like you say 1.5mm should be about right.

As for blunders, there has been many! but like you say its how you get over them that really gets you thinking.
"The man who made no mistakes made nothing at all"
Last edited by Hattori-Hanzo on 03 Feb 2020, 20:44, edited 1 time in total.
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By Bm101
#1334439
Huge steps up the learning curve just by reading the interaction between you both. Many thanks to the pair of you for sharing so much hard won knowledge.
Great stuff.
=D>
Chris
By IWW
#1334468
Hattori-Hanzo wrote:...... EDIT....
Just reading your post again and I think this process is what your referring to as a "notch" on one of your planes? ...........

Not exactly, Hattori, what I was referring to is a distinct notch, with very little, if any bevel (the distortion caused by peening will give the impression of a bevel). You probably need to register to see pictures, but this old thread on the 'Ubeaut' forum had an excellent article on making a bench rebate plane: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f44/wip- ... rass-80588?

Unfortunately, it lost most of the pictures due to a glitch during a programme upgrade, but post #13, which is the relevant one, still has its pictures. The author of the thread is a hugely knowledgeable chap when it comes to metalwork & tool history in general - if you haven't seen his website it's well worth a look when you have a bit of time: http://www.petermcbride.com/metal_plane_making/

Thanks for the explanation of how you marked out the sole - simple & effective!
As you say, adding the bevel from below adds to the mystery when you have contrasting metals to display the joints.

And your end quote is something I say to beginners very often. I once asked an old friend, who was way ahead of me in all sorts of manual arts, and a very skilled turner, "When do you stop making mistakes?" He replied "Dunno - I still make plenty". Learning is lifelong, as they say.... :wink:

Chris - I'm learning from the exchange too! There's always some little angle or idea one can glean by reading other people's build posts. Like a way to mark out the dovetails on the sole of a mitre plane..... :D
Cheers,
Ian
By Tealeaf
#1334553
Absolutely stunning work there. So impressed, it was a great way to spend 5 minutes reading the post while drinking some tea..... and that 5 minutes turned into a hour as the thread completely absorbed me!

Great skill, thank you for sharing.
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By Hattori-Hanzo
#1334578
Thanks for the messages guys, really glad you're finding the thread interesting.

Thanks Ian for the link on the relief cuts in the dovetail, it's all starting to make sense now.....at least I think so :)

and thank you for linking to Peters site, that's my evening sorted.
I have seen his planes come up on image searches but could never put a name to them, now the mystery is solved.

Cheers.
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By Hattori-Hanzo
#1334777
Getting towards the end of my next plane.

Another mitre plane which is a little smaller than the last and I've had a go at making a brass lever cap as well.
Not the easiest thing to make, lots of hand work involved but the hardest part was drilling the centre hole square through it.
Our pillar drill is old and seen some abuse over the years, it has a fair amount of run out, couple that with drill bits that always want to wander it's not the ideal set up.

I made a wooden template to start before cutting the brass.

Image

Lots of hand filing to define the shape.

Image

Then lots of sanding to clean it up.

Image

I then polished it to a mirror finish.

Image

I also made the thumb screw but I might make another one as I think it wants to be a little larger. Quite pleased with how this turned out though, it was my first attempt at shaping the head of the thumb screw. I did it on the lathe by eye with a half round cutter I ground from an old bit of blank steel.

Image

Here's a size comparison to the last plane.

Image

First dry assembly of the plane. I managed to get hold of a small piece of box wood for the infill.
My first time using it, nice to work but hard as old boots. Has a lovely creamy colour when first sanded but I'm guessing this will darken quite a lot.
Just need to work on the blade now.

Image

I'm really pleased with the peining on this plane, it's the best I've achieved so far.
The thinner brass and O1 tool steel where a lot nicer to work.
As mentioned previously I halved the amount of surplus material for peining and it definitely made a big improvement.

Image

I'm going for a high polish on this plane so lastly I spent a lot time sanding and polishing the body.

Image

Image

I'm going for a 6mm thick blade on this plane which is going to be a lot of work, cutting, shaping and then hardening the blade is going to be a challenge.

I don't think our wood burner is going to work so well on 6mm so next I'm going to make a simple forge and give that a try.

Still a fair bit of work to do yet.

Also a little video of the lever cap.


youtu.be/gP3fRIfEO-E

Cheers.
By IWW
#1334808
Hattori, you're cranking these things out so fast I can't keep up! :o

It seems strange to me now, but the lever cap was my biggest worry when I was thinking about making my first infill, I was only half as worried about peening the pins & tails. I was stuck on the idea that all the LCs I knew about were cast, it didn't occur to me that one could just take a lump of brass & sculpt a LC from it. But one day I wanted a LC for a small plane I was making & decided to give it a go - turned out to be not only far easier than I'd expected, it gave me more satisfaction sculpting that LC than making the rest of the plane. My first attempt was far less elegant than the one you just made, but once I grasped the idea, it didn't take long to make them look a bit more professional.

You need to save some pennies for a decent drill & machine-vise, I think. :wink: Wandering drill bits are also caused by asymmetrically- sharpened bits. Small diameter bits don't have to be off by much to send them a-wandering in a long-ish hole. I have a drill sharpener that does a fair job on bits from about 3 to 8mm, but for critical operations I keep a set of new ones in the most regularly-used sizes.

But why not avoid the problem? I seem to be the only one using screws as axles of my LCs, & wondering if there's some good reason why I shouldn't. I did this on my first infill because I had only a vague idea of how I might rivet the LC into the plane without pinching the sides down & making it too stiff to function properly. So I came up with the idea of using a couple of "cheese-head" screws. It looks quite neat & has worked with no apparent problems to date. One advantage is you only need to drill about a 15mm hole from each side (+/- depending on size of LC & plane), which makes it easier to get the holes where they should be, and I've been thankful a number of times when I had to pull the LC out for one reason or another. With the screw heads flushed to the sides, it looks neat enough, I think:
Thumb plane.jpg


Your peening looks flawless on this plane, and I see you are starting to play with some more decoration. Are we seeing the next Karl Holtey emerging here?? :)
Cheers,
Ian
By D_W
#1334878
I also screw lever caps in. I don't have a mill or a mill drill, just a cheap press (like really cheap - bench top, $150 or so). I have always located holes on infills and drilled from both sides. freehand (not with the press, but by eye with a cordless drill). the reason for this for me is probably different than most - if you are a hand tool woodworker, you can learn to see square and plumb very well, so I find usually only a tiny step where the holes meet, and my oldest planes now are 10 years old, and no ill effect.

But inability to drill across spans accurately leaves me using screws just as shown in the plane above - they are readily available, all you need is to be able to tap the lever cap and the need for precision drilling in the lever cap is relieved. Tuning the lever cap and bed to be tight and even on the iron so that the plane adjusts perfectly is also made a lot easier.
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By Hattori-Hanzo
#1334961
Thanks for the comments guys.

Hattori, you're cranking these things out so fast I can't keep up! :o

Ian, don't worry I'm not getting any quicker. I'm still catching this thread up.
There was about 3-4 weeks of work to the plane at this point.

Thanks for the advice about the cheese head screws chaps. I think they suit some planes more than others.
I do prefer the clean look on a peined over rod but have to say its suits your plane nicely Ian.

One of my main concerns with them is the stepped hole depth into the body.
Am I right in saying cheese head screws aren't counter sunk, instead they have a flat bottom?

How deep would you need to drill the hole in the plane sides to get the head of the screw flush?
and how do you go about drilling a flat bottom hole?
I've done it before by grinding a drill bit flat but it's not ideal.

If I were using 3mm brass for the sides and needed to drill 2.5mm deep hole to fully seat the screw head that leaves a very thin bit of brass holding the rest of the screw, or is this not a concern once the lever cap is fitted?
By IWW
#1334978
Hattori-Hanzo wrote:......
How deep would you need to drill the hole in the plane sides to get the head of the screw flush?
and how do you go about drilling a flat bottom hole?
I've done it before by grinding a drill bit flat but it's not ideal.

If I were using 3mm brass for the sides and needed to drill 2.5mm deep hole to fully seat the screw head that leaves a very thin bit of brass holding the rest of the screw, or is this not a concern once the lever cap is fitted?.....


Hattori, you are over-thinking & over-complicating matters. :?

The heads of the screws become simple stub-axles, they go all the way through the side and abut the LC. The screws don't need to bear on the sides at all; once both screws are in, the lever-cap is effectively captured. This method does require the LC to be a neat fit between the sides, of course.

This sketch should explain all:
LCscrew b.jpg


No complex joinery needed. Because I make my own screws, I can make any size I want with any diameter & depth of head. But a typical M6 or M5 machine screw should suit a medium to large plane with 3.2-4mm sides.
There is no compelling reason to have a larger diameter head on the screws. Before I had my lathe I just found bolts of the diameter I wanted that had a partial thread. Screw the bolt into the lever cap until the thread runs out, then cut it off so the unthreaded bit left sticking out is a little shorter than the thickness of the side. Neaten the cut by spinning the bolt in your drill and applying a file, then carefully cut a slot (a 'junior' hacksaw blade cuts a slot of an appropriate width for a fine-bladed driver). Simple, effective & you don't need a different diameter hole in the sides.

The aesthetic aspect is a purely personal matter. Rivets can be made to disappear, keeping the sides as one continuous & uninterrupted surface, but to me there's a functional beauty in seeing that I can easily remove the LC if the need arises.

It has on only a couple of occasions, I'll admit..... :)
Cheers,
Ian
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By Hattori-Hanzo
#1334981
Thanks for clearing that up Ian, makes perfect sense now.

I will look into this method in the future as it certainly seems a good approach to take and like you say the ability to remove the lever cap for fettling is a bonus.