Krenovian Damascas Plane

[Droogs]

Came accross this this morning during first tea break:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cy2S6jbviQ

 

[Trafalgar]

Cool plane. Surprised the guy still has all his fingers. Would have been nice seeing him use the plane.

 

[D_W]

No slight to the fellow, but a hand forged iron deserves a plane that's not glued together (one with a wear would be an improvement, too).

 

[dzj]

Yeah, a lot of those Krenov/ laminated type planes on Youtube.
Very few videos of people making any significant projects with them.
Even intermediate ones are hard to find.

 

[JohnPW]

Machined laminated planes are easy to make!

 

[D_W]

Yeah, a lot of those Krenov/ laminated type planes on Youtube.
Very few videos of people making any significant projects with them.
Even intermediate ones are hard to find.

That one's actually pretty nice visually when the builder is done, but it's got some fatal flaws from lack of exposure.

The point of the video for both is to drive subscribers, though, not to make a nice plane or a nice iron (the iron looks quite nice, though - I'd be glad to have one, but not at the price that would be charged).

Everything is learning, but I learned long ago that if you don't make a plane that's at least as nice as the planes you've bought, you won't use it very long. I've thrown away six planes that I've made, though two were just cherry moulding planes that I remade in beech. They were visually (quartered cherry) superb, though - there's something really lovely about quartered curly cherry that's had some time to darken. Beech can't compete, and from time to time, you run across cherry with good density, but those two planes didn't have that kind of density.

 

[Bodgers]

No slight to the fellow, but a hand forged iron deserves a plane that's not glued together (one with a wear would be an improvement, too).

What is the disadvantage of a glued plane, vs one made out a single piece?


I notice The English woodworker has plans and a video series on making a wood jack using the glued method...

 

[Orraloon]

I can say from experience that a glued up plane can start coming apart if you have large humidity changes. Not having the tools or skill to chop out a solid body the next glueup plane will be done with epoxy.
Regards
John

 

[swagman]

Don't understand why he would bother using that blade bevel up on such a high bed angle.

 

[patrickjchase]

No slight to the fellow, but a hand forged iron deserves a plane that's not glued together (one with a wear would be an improvement, too).

Yep.

Also, the words "leave a finish that requires almost no sanding" are like nails on chalkboard for me when used to describe a smoother. As you often point out, it shouldn't require sanding period.

 

[patrickjchase]

Cool plane. Surprised the guy still has all his fingers. Would have been nice seeing him use the plane.

Well, if you look at the benchtop at 7:46 it would appear that his (nonexistent) safety practices have caught up with him at least a little.

 

[patrickjchase]

Don't understand why he would bother using that blade bevel up on such a high bed angle.

Eegads, good eye Stewie. So it's basically a Krenov-style scraping plane.

 

[custard]

the words "leave a finish that requires almost no sanding" are like nails on chalkboard for me when used to describe a smoother. As you often point out, it shouldn't require sanding period.

That depends on how the job's finished Patrick. Common practise amongst custom furniture makers is that if you're applying a thin film finish that will itself need sanding then you sand the job before finishing using a hard sanding block, however if you're applying a finish that doesn't require any sanding, say an oiled finish for example, then it's your choice to sand or to finish straight from the plane.

The reason is that a planed finish is likely to have some tiny scalloped ridges somewhere on the surface. Let's say you've stained the piece and then applied a thin film finish that requires sanding. If you sand through one of those ridges and remove the stain then you've no choice but to strip the surface and start again. That can easily cost you a day's work or more.

You don't have to do that too many times before you stick to the rule of "always sand before a thin film finish"!

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I'm sorry. I do not see anything in this plane build that is memorable. It is a poor design, chosen largely to show off the wood. As Stewie notes, the blade is BU, which is bizarre - if you want a scraper plane, then build the bed vertical or around 80 degrees, and face the back of the blade forwards. I believe that the builder had no idea what he was doing. You can see totally amateurish "sawing", which he refers to as planing, as he scrubs away with short frantic strokes. He lacks a bench that will hold wood for planing - not even a vise or bench stop. Good grief!

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

No slight to the fellow, but a hand forged iron deserves a plane that's not glued together (one with a wear would be an improvement, too).

Yep.

Also, the words "leave a finish that requires almost no sanding" are like nails on chalkboard for me when used to describe a smoother. As you often point out, it shouldn't require sanding period.

I'm sure most shops still scrape and sand since the customers don't care, but someone brought me a small table top two weeks ago requesting a planed final finish (it was actually just out of glue-up, so the whole thing needed to be flattened and then planed) and it wasn't much of an issue to plane without needing any scraping or sanding. If I was working for someone else and left a line in one out of ten table tops, though, I'm sure the shop owner would hand me a sanding block and say "no more lines".

It's a "collab" video, though. If there is one educated subscriber and 250 dummies, the channel owners will take the dummies (if I was trying to generate ad revenue and ultimately sell T-shirts and all kinds of rubbish, I guess I would, too).

In my normal grouching about the difference between "wood show" planing and what my friend refers to as "balls on the floor fatigue" from a multi hour planing session, I guess there is a level below wood-show planing now, and that is "collab video planing" or plane making. Bringing in the usefulness aspect of making a tool that isn't worse than one that you can buy cheaply sort of ruins the fun, though.

The end result is neat looking. It would look good on an office shelf. I'd love to have one of those irons of Alex's to put a proper plane around it, but what I'd like more is a NOS ward iron to do the same thing. And no "collab" video.

 

[D_W]

I'm sorry. I do not see anything in this plane build that is memorable. It is a poor design, chosen largely to show off the wood. As Stewie notes, the blade is BU, which is bizarre - if you want a scraper plane, then build the bed vertical or around 80 degrees, and face the back of the blade forwards. I believe that the builder had no idea what he was doing. You can see totally amateurish "sawing", which he refers to as planing, as he scrubs away with short frantic strokes. He lacks a bench that will hold wood for planing - not even a vise or bench stop. Good grief!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Oh, Derek - you're such a party pooper

 

[D_W]

Don't understand why he would bother using that blade bevel up on such a high bed angle.

You did better than me if you watched long enough to see that happen. I just skipped to the end to see the plane (no wear, large mouth, and poor support cross pin and wedge).

 

[D_W]

No slight to the fellow, but a hand forged iron deserves a plane that's not glued together (one with a wear would be an improvement, too).

What is the disadvantage of a glued plane, vs one made out a single piece?


I notice The English woodworker has plans and a video series on making a wood jack using the glued method...

You end up with an inferior plane that has the potential for creep and movement (but the inferiority isn't just due to glue). I saw that Richard decided to sort of junk it up with an accessible plane design, but most people watching his videos would be better of watching mine - not to make a plane - but to buy one of the many fabulous used low-wear wooden planes that you guys have left over there and do a once-over on the wedge, iron and cap iron and sole. You'd have a better plane for less money and much less effort. You'd actually have a lifetime plane that you couldn't really improve upon, even if you went so far as to build them like I do.

I think Richard was probably looking for accessible when he made a plane glued together with a cross pin and in at least one, used a stanley iron and cap iron. I get it from his perspective - he can't turn around and suggest that everyone copy a holtey plane with holtey's accuracy constraints, but I have issues with those compromises (cross pin, wrong style of iron, etc) because a plane like that will not perform as well, especially if you get into heavier work with it. The fact that it may come apart or creep over time isn't really that big of a deal, you can lap the plane from time to time and remove any glue creep problems, and if it comes apart, you can just build another one. Mortising a plane out of properly sawn wood (a single piece) exempts you from any of that ever occurring, though. And it's a lot easier than it seems. Using a proper tapered iron and cap iron means that the fit, support and nuances (how the fingers terminate at the top of the cap iron and don't create clog points, but don't have to terminate short of the end of the cap to do it, how the wedge and tapered iron and cap work together for adjustment etc) are all as they should be. They're all the way they are for a reason.

A glued-together plane is destined to be set aside by a serious woodworker. I made duds before I made good ones, and making duds and then setting them aside is what drove me to figure out how to make good ones. "Oh, but they're easier to make" doesn't go that far if you find yourself making a half dozen turds in the same time that you could've made one or two good ones that you'll actually use.

 

[Sideways]

I'm reading this thread with interest. Can I ask anyone to volunteer a couple if links so that I can see some "best in class" wooden planes made without the glue up method. I'm interested in the most accurate and efficient techniques for getting the blade properly bedded and an achieving an accurate, fine mouth.
I'd enjoy making a wooden plane, need a scraper plane anyway, but don't want to waste time and timber on something that is simple but appears to be flawed.
Also, any recommendations for irons ? Ron Hock ?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Ttrees]

Look David W's videos up
Brian Holcombe seems to be happy with his