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By D_W
#1337410
ED65 wrote:In a rare case of disagreeing with D_W I think a cap iron's edge should be made square to its sides (assuming it isn't already, generally they are or pretty darn close unless previously messed with, damaged by a drop or worn through heavy use). Then the cutting iron should be adjusted to match and afterwards just kept that way.


if one is married to a grinding and honing solution that only works dead square, this maybe necessary (especially if the hand skill for it not to be isn't there, and hand tool use is otherwise limited, anyway).

The freehand grinding skill to match the cap iron is miles more useful in the long term, though, and it doesn't risk damaging a cap iron that's otherwise working well.

If I went and did a presentation at a woodworking club on grinding and sharpening, I'd bet 3/4ths of the room couldn't set up a moving fillister plane because they wouldn't understand the concept of checking the iron against the sole and adjusting by touch. If you're going to use a moving fillister a lot, detaching from knowing angles or checking them (it doesn't matter what they are, it matters that you're honing the iron relative to the sole of the plane) will make it so that sharpening and grinding a skew plane takes the same amount of time as any other plane.

Limited tool use (plenty of people would wonder why you'd use a moving fillister plane instead of a router, let alone why you would pick up a vintage wooden plane that may have a cap iron that's fairly far off - and then compound that by having an iron that's tapered in along its length - there is no square)....anyway, limited tool use may make it so that this isn't a useful skill. But less than limited, especially if you get into making some of your own tools on top of that - it's monstrously useful.

I work in isolation, though. The guy who got me into woodworking thinks I'm an oddball luddite (he's even English living in the states here) - I don't know what an average woodworker does. I started with all of the square stuff, and the very prescriptive jigs, etc. It was aggravation.
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By bp122
#1337524
D_W wrote:None of those things are critical that I'm aware of aside from #2 in your list and some decent bedding at the bottom of the frog (which will probably occur by design). if the lever cap is off kilter from the cap iron a little bit, i doubt it matters (but you set that and it rotates, so it can't be that bad, or you can readjust).

In terms of what's really critical, an iron doesn't have to have parallel sides (some of them don't), and the sides of the iron and the plane don't need to be ideal to the sole. The sole needs to be functionally flat, the cap iron needs to be able to be adjusted parallel to the width of the sole and the iron itself needs to be ground and honed to be mated to the cap iron. if the cap is a tiny bit out of square but the plane adjusts fine, then grind the iron so that it matches the cap, not squareness. It's easier. I know that's not how most people visualize things, but if you learn to make small adjustments to the iron to keep it mated to the cap, the plane will always function well, and when you come across a plane with tapering sides on the iron (which is beneficial in a wedged plane), you won't be searching for a squareness that really isn't there because the sides of the iron aren't parallel to each other.

This is also preferable to adjusting the cap iron to make it perfectly square. Cap irons should only be adjusted if no other accommodations can be made (some of the older woodies are so poorly made that such a thing is necessary).


Understood. Thank you for the clarification :)

Bm101 wrote:I have a sorby proedge I bought on here. I also have abiding memories of honing guides and fettling planes and wet and dry on plate glass with rough as f### irons and planes I was trying to get true as a beginner while trying to take on much well intentioned advice. And I'm still a beginner. But I have a sorby and I'm glad I do.
Send me your irons for your (3?) planes and I'll grind them all at 90 degrees with whatever bevel you want as long as its a preset sorby one. 25 degrees should be grand.
Pm with your address etc.
Cheers
Chris.


Thanks, Chris. That is very kind of you. I will arrange for that as soon as possible and send you a PM with the details.

ED65 wrote:If it's slipping in use you need to tighten the screw further. IMO it's worth having a dedicated screwdriver for this purpose, one that spans most or all of the screw slots on cap-iron screws. You can make an ad hoc thing from a large washer if need be!

Unless you're doing finish planing the cap iron's leading edge does not need to be perfectly parallel with the cutting edge. It's good if it is, but not absolutely vital so don't sweat it too much if you're not using your no. 4 for finishing planing. If you're using your 6 as a fore plane it's even less vital there, if you're using it as a jointer then yes it is desirable for them to be parallel (and ideally square too).

In a rare case of disagreeing with D_W I think a cap iron's edge should be made square to its sides (assuming it isn't already, generally they are or pretty darn close unless previously messed with, damaged by a drop or worn through heavy use). Then the cutting iron should be adjusted to match and afterwards just kept that way.

I find this idea much preferable to maintaining an iron in an out-of-square condition permanently, something that would go double for someone using a honing guide.


Good point about the wide screwdriver. I struggled with it at first, but then watched Paul Sellers use the lever cap's bottom edge to do the job. It made sense so I am using that until I find a better solution.

I do want to keep my No.4 for smoothing, as I like the surface that way. I'll set it up carefully.

ED65 wrote:
bp122 wrote:But I got myself an old 150W 150mm grinder with the blue wheel on it - which I understand is quite coarse.

Not ideal but may still be usable. Better types of stones keep the steel cooler (not cool, they just don't get it as hot as fast) but if you don't grind right to an edge, which you're not supposed to anyway when grinding conventionally, overheating is not too likely.

And of course you can dunk the steel into cold water periodically to cool it as and when needed. The lower power of the grinder may be working in your favour here since lower speed aids in not overheating too.


What stone do you recommend which would do most jobs if not all?

Nigel Burden wrote:I was going to mention not getting the iron hot.

My cheap old B&Q grinder will blue an iron in no time. I keep a jar of water handy, and to avoid overheating I make one pass, dunk, one pass, dunk, this avoids overheating. I find that the belt sander, which has adjustable speeds does the job ok on the rare occasion that I need anything other than just honing the iron free hand.

Nigel.


Cheers, Nigel. I'll keep that in mind. What stone do you use?

D_W wrote:
if one is married to a grinding and honing solution that only works dead square, this maybe necessary (especially if the hand skill for it not to be isn't there, and hand tool use is otherwise limited, anyway).

The freehand grinding skill to match the cap iron is miles more useful in the long term, though, and it doesn't risk damaging a cap iron that's otherwise working well.

If I went and did a presentation at a woodworking club on grinding and sharpening, I'd bet 3/4ths of the room couldn't set up a moving fillister plane because they wouldn't understand the concept of checking the iron against the sole and adjusting by touch. If you're going to use a moving fillister a lot, detaching from knowing angles or checking them (it doesn't matter what they are, it matters that you're honing the iron relative to the sole of the plane) will make it so that sharpening and grinding a skew plane takes the same amount of time as any other plane.

Limited tool use (plenty of people would wonder why you'd use a moving fillister plane instead of a router, let alone why you would pick up a vintage wooden plane that may have a cap iron that's fairly far off - and then compound that by having an iron that's tapered in along its length - there is no square)....anyway, limited tool use may make it so that this isn't a useful skill. But less than limited, especially if you get into making some of your own tools on top of that - it's monstrously useful.

I work in isolation, though. The guy who got me into woodworking thinks I'm an oddball luddite (he's even English living in the states here) - I don't know what an average woodworker does. I started with all of the square stuff, and the very prescriptive jigs, etc. It was aggravation.


I tried freehand a few times, the bevel looks like a crumpled tinfoil :D :D :D :D :D
By D_W
#1337536
Definitely stop short of the bevel freehand grinding - that's part of the key. Stop just short of the bevel, manage the angle overall with a medium stone and work the back of the iron and only the very tip with a fine stone. What's manage the angle with a medium stone mean? It means if you need to remove some material from the high side of a bevel, then raise a larger wire edge on that side than on the other. Do that each time you hone if anything is off, and nothing will ever be off far enough to worry about doing more than just that.

Easy.

Once you grind all the way through the bevel, best to go check with the medium stone where the "line" of the edge will be so that you don't keep grinding the overground parts further while you're attempting to knock down the high spots.
User avatar
By Bm101
#1337560
No probs. BP. If you can put together a little cardboard wrapping that I can open 1 end of with a knife etc and readdress easily that would make life easier for me. Will also stop postie from knocking irons together or cutting his finger off. Always good.
Cheers

Chris
By Nigel Burden
#1337567
bp122 wrote:
D_W wrote:None of those things are critical that I'm aware of aside from #2 in your list and some decent bedding at the bottom of the frog (which will probably occur by design). if the lever cap is off kilter from the cap iron a little bit, i doubt it matters (but you set that and it rotates, so it can't be that bad, or you can readjust).

In terms of what's really critical, an iron doesn't have to have parallel sides (some of them don't), and the sides of the iron and the plane don't need to be ideal to the sole. The sole needs to be functionally flat, the cap iron needs to be able to be adjusted parallel to the width of the sole and the iron itself needs to be ground and honed to be mated to the cap iron. if the cap is a tiny bit out of square but the plane adjusts fine, then grind the iron so that it matches the cap, not squareness. It's easier. I know that's not how most people visualize things, but if you learn to make small adjustments to the iron to keep it mated to the cap, the plane will always function well, and when you come across a plane with tapering sides on the iron (which is beneficial in a wedged plane), you won't be searching for a squareness that really isn't there because the sides of the iron aren't parallel to each other.

This is also preferable to adjusting the cap iron to make it perfectly square. Cap irons should only be adjusted if no other accommodations can be made (some of the older woodies are so poorly made that such a thing is necessary).


Understood. Thank you for the clarification :)

Bm101 wrote:I have a sorby proedge I bought on here. I also have abiding memories of honing guides and fettling planes and wet and dry on plate glass with rough as f### irons and planes I was trying to get true as a beginner while trying to take on much well intentioned advice. And I'm still a beginner. But I have a sorby and I'm glad I do.
Send me your irons for your (3?) planes and I'll grind them all at 90 degrees with whatever bevel you want as long as its a preset sorby one. 25 degrees should be grand.
Pm with your address etc.
Cheers
Chris.


Thanks, Chris. That is very kind of you. I will arrange for that as soon as possible and send you a PM with the details.

ED65 wrote:If it's slipping in use you need to tighten the screw further. IMO it's worth having a dedicated screwdriver for this purpose, one that spans most or all of the screw slots on cap-iron screws. You can make an ad hoc thing from a large washer if need be!

Unless you're doing finish planing the cap iron's leading edge does not need to be perfectly parallel with the cutting edge. It's good if it is, but not absolutely vital so don't sweat it too much if you're not using your no. 4 for finishing planing. If you're using your 6 as a fore plane it's even less vital there, if you're using it as a jointer then yes it is desirable for them to be parallel (and ideally square too).

In a rare case of disagreeing with D_W I think a cap iron's edge should be made square to its sides (assuming it isn't already, generally they are or pretty darn close unless previously messed with, damaged by a drop or worn through heavy use). Then the cutting iron should be adjusted to match and afterwards just kept that way.

I find this idea much preferable to maintaining an iron in an out-of-square condition permanently, something that would go double for someone using a honing guide.


Good point about the wide screwdriver. I struggled with it at first, but then watched Paul Sellers use the lever cap's bottom edge to do the job. It made sense so I am using that until I find a better solution.

I do want to keep my No.4 for smoothing, as I like the surface that way. I'll set it up carefully.

ED65 wrote:
bp122 wrote:But I got myself an old 150W 150mm grinder with the blue wheel on it - which I understand is quite coarse.

Not ideal but may still be usable. Better types of stones keep the steel cooler (not cool, they just don't get it as hot as fast) but if you don't grind right to an edge, which you're not supposed to anyway when grinding conventionally, overheating is not too likely.

And of course you can dunk the steel into cold water periodically to cool it as and when needed. The lower power of the grinder may be working in your favour here since lower speed aids in not overheating too.


What stone do you recommend which would do most jobs if not all?

Nigel Burden wrote:I was going to mention not getting the iron hot.

My cheap old B&Q grinder will blue an iron in no time. I keep a jar of water handy, and to avoid overheating I make one pass, dunk, one pass, dunk, this avoids overheating. I find that the belt sander, which has adjustable speeds does the job ok on the rare occasion that I need anything other than just honing the iron free hand.

Nigel.


Cheers, Nigel. I'll keep that in mind. What stone do you use?

D_W wrote:
if one is married to a grinding and honing solution that only works dead square, this maybe necessary (especially if the hand skill for it not to be isn't there, and hand tool use is otherwise limited, anyway).

The freehand grinding skill to match the cap iron is miles more useful in the long term, though, and it doesn't risk damaging a cap iron that's otherwise working well.

If I went and did a presentation at a woodworking club on grinding and sharpening, I'd bet 3/4ths of the room couldn't set up a moving fillister plane because they wouldn't understand the concept of checking the iron against the sole and adjusting by touch. If you're going to use a moving fillister a lot, detaching from knowing angles or checking them (it doesn't matter what they are, it matters that you're honing the iron relative to the sole of the plane) will make it so that sharpening and grinding a skew plane takes the same amount of time as any other plane.

Limited tool use (plenty of people would wonder why you'd use a moving fillister plane instead of a router, let alone why you would pick up a vintage wooden plane that may have a cap iron that's fairly far off - and then compound that by having an iron that's tapered in along its length - there is no square)....anyway, limited tool use may make it so that this isn't a useful skill. But less than limited, especially if you get into making some of your own tools on top of that - it's monstrously useful.

I work in isolation, though. The guy who got me into woodworking thinks I'm an oddball luddite (he's even English living in the states here) - I don't know what an average woodworker does. I started with all of the square stuff, and the very prescriptive jigs, etc. It was aggravation.


I tried freehand a few times, the bevel looks like a crumpled tinfoil :D :D :D :D :D


I actually haven't got a clue what the stones are, but they're the originals. The grinder is about thirty years old, and to be honest back in those days it was just a grinder. I had no idea about different stones and their characteristics. I very rarely use it, I'm just aware that it will blue a blade if you don't dunk regularly. As it's not used very much I'm not going to spend out on new wheels. I'm sure that someone on the forum will be along soon with advice regarding the best stone to use.

Nigel.
By D_W
#1337570
If you're grinding with any hard/older wheel, find one of the cheap T dressers that are made in china. Even a $6 wheel freshly dressed will generally grind tool steel without too much heat (you can prove me wrong by leaning on a blade and letting it sit stationary on a wheel, but hopefully that's not the aim).
User avatar
By ED65
#1337669
bp122 wrote:Good point about the wide screwdriver. I struggled with it at first, but then watched Paul Sellers use the lever cap's bottom edge to do the job. It made sense so I am using that until I find a better solution.

Yeah, as I think Paul says occasionally (as he looks sheepishly at the camera) you should really do this. It's one of those things where you can get away with it, until you don't. Takes all of two minutes to modify a large washer to suit. Lock it in a cheap vice-grips, job done for now.

bp122 wrote:What stone do you recommend which would do most jobs if not all?

It depends on what you mean by most jobs.

For grinding tool steel only if you can afford it a CBN wheel is the pinnacle of grinder wheels. Their price has come down as their popularity has grown so although they're not cheap cheap they're not eye-wateringly expensive as they once were.

If you want a grinder wheel for any sorts of grinding that you might want to do what you have there is probably fine, maybe even ideal, as long as the surface isn't glazed. Glazing makes a wheel cut much more slowly, increasing friction and the chance of overheating. This isn't critical on everything, it's no problem really just grinding down the end of a bolt or other random non-cutting-tool grinder jobs, but on something already hardened where you want to maintain temper (even a screwdriver) it's best to have a fresh surface. Then just grind a bit and cool, grind a bit and cool and don't get too close to a sharp edge and you'll be fine.

This isn't an either/or situation, you can have both of these types fitted on the same grinder if you like.
User avatar
By bp122
#1337692
D_W wrote:If you're grinding with any hard/older wheel, find one of the cheap T dressers that are made in china. Even a $6 wheel freshly dressed will generally grind tool steel without too much heat (you can prove me wrong by leaning on a blade and letting it sit stationary on a wheel, but hopefully that's not the aim).


Thank you. I will get the T dresser. The wheels on the grinder are the light blue ones - which I believe is the general purpose grinding wheels.

ED65 wrote:
For grinding tool steel only if you can afford it a CBN wheel is the pinnacle of grinder wheels. Their price has come down as their popularity has grown so although they're not cheap cheap they're not eye-wateringly expensive as they once were.

If you want a grinder wheel for any sorts of grinding that you might want to do what you have there is probably fine, maybe even ideal, as long as the surface isn't glazed. Glazing makes a wheel cut much more slowly, increasing friction and the chance of overheating. This isn't critical on everything, it's no problem really just grinding down the end of a bolt or other random non-cutting-tool grinder jobs, but on something already hardened where you want to maintain temper (even a screwdriver) it's best to have a fresh surface. Then just grind a bit and cool, grind a bit and cool and don't get too close to a sharp edge and you'll be fine.

This isn't an either/or situation, you can have both of these types fitted on the same grinder if you like.


Thank you, good to know! Is there a risk of shattered / internally cracked wheels with old grinders? I just didn't want abrasive bits flying towards me :D
Also, on my grinder, I want to keep a grinding wheel on one side and a sire wheel / polishing mop on the other.
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By AndyT
#1337706
bp122 wrote:
Thank you, good to know! Is there a risk of shattered / internally cracked wheels with old grinders? I just didn't want abrasive bits flying towards me :D


The problem is if some previous owner worked too hard on the side of a wheel that was designed only for use on the edge. Try gently knocking the wheel with a bolt or something. If the wheel rings with a nice clear sound, it's ok. If it sounds dull, inspect the wheel closely then replace it. (Compare the sound from both wheels while you still have them on.)

And don't be tempted to remove the metal guards shrouding most of the wheel.
By jeremyduncombe
#1337712
Bp122 wrote:
Is there a risk of shattered / internally cracked wheels with old grinders? I just didn't want abrasive bits flying toward me [/quote]

A mate of mine is a skilled and generally safety conscious antique restorer. A few years ago he was using his bench grindstone for some purpose. He lifted his face mask as soon as he had switched the machine off, but while the wheel was still spinning. The wheel ( which was old and well used ) disintegrated and a chunk passed through his jaw from one side to the other. His jaw was rebuilt and he now wears dentures. If you did not know him before the accident, you would not notice anything wrong with his face - but I am now super careful with any grinding wheels. A one-in-a-million chance I guess .... but you never know.
Last edited by jeremyduncombe on 21 Feb 2020, 12:41, edited 1 time in total.
By D_W
#1337783
This reminds me of model airplaning here in the states, as well as grinders. You can use a grinder without standing in the arc, which isn't bad policy for a beginner. I've been to the ER once (from a low speed belt sander of all things - it had just enough speed to toss a round metal particle onto the surface of my eye - I thought I could stand off to the side and get away with it "just once" and didn't even feel it, but looking in the mirror at the end of a shop session saw a shiny little dot in the brown of my eye - it wasn't but a day or two of hassle to get it out and then deal with an eye that had been numbed and dilated to the moon during the process).

I never work without glasses now (grinding hammering anything). I never push hard on the side of a hard wheel, and I don't stand in the arc of a wheel in heavy use. My "injury" was at low speed, just a nuisance. But a good lesson to think about what can happen at high speed. Your friend's is a good reminder, too.

An English friend of mine likes to say "The difference between the Rockefellers and the Smiths is that the Rockefellers got where they are by being smart enough to learn from other peoples mistakes rather than insisting on making them themselves".
By Cheshirechappie
#1337790
Couple of quick points about grinding wheel dressing.

First point is that it's a process that generates a LOT of abrasive dust, even if you just skim the periphery of the wheel to clean it up. Best done outdoors, or at any rate, well away from anything that might not like the dust. That, or cover things over beforehand, and clean up thoroughly afterwards.

Second point is a tip from Barry Iles (one of Ashley Iles' sons, and currently on of the owners of that firm), who learned his trade as a young man from the Sheffield cutlers and edge-tool makers. Dress the periphery of the wheel to a very slight crown, and when grinding, keep the tool moving side to side. That will practically eliminate the chances of over-heating the tool.