Electric vehicles

[RogerS]

Interesting posts, Droogs and thanks. The one thing that jumps out at me is the sheer power of Groupthink in social media. Kind of saddens me, TBH.

 

[Droogs]

Me too

 

[RogerS]

One thing's for sure, my missus would never agree to one. She even hates the electric brake on the Audi ! She hates the way it always seems to be beeping at her as well. I am with her on one thing though. This model of Q3 lets you shove that wretched and to us pointless central screen out of sight. I think that if we ever get a car where you can't do that then I'll be making a nice little ornate wooden cover.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Luddite. I was at the bloody forefront of the microprocessor revolution. Designed and built my first three computers long before Gates-baby. I just happen to think that we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater and lost our priorities as a society.

 

[Lons]

because in general we are a bunch of old farts.

Hey, speak for yourself Droogs. :roll:
On second thoughts you're probably right. :wink:

 

[Geoff_S]

because in general we are a bunch of old farts.

Hey, speak for yourself Droogs. :roll:
On second thoughts you're probably right. :wink:

Careful, don't slip into groupthink :|

 

[Lons]

upcoming generations expect to have autonomous clean transport systems in place

The problem with that Droogs is it will take longer than 10 - 15 years to achieve that on a national basis. The youth of today may well not see the need for a car and it's perfectly valid if they live in one of the major conurbations with established public transport and cycle paths but they'll change their minds pretty quickly if they move out into the countryside with maybe half a dozen buses a day if they're lucky enough to be near a bus route in the first place.

The taxi service provided by mum and dad might well not be available if they can't afford an EV

 

[Lons]

Has anyone noticed, 20 pages and no falling out or political arguments and pontificating. Just the way it should be. =D>

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Has anyone noticed, 20 pages and no falling out or political arguments and pontificating. Just the way it should be. =D>

That's because everyone here is just lovely.

Talking about second hand prices, I had a quick look at auto trader, and there are 496 ev cars available priced below £15,000.

Now I think I could save up to £3,000 a year on fuel costs, so if I bought a second hand EV for £5,000, it would only have to survive two years before it had paid for itself.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified ... rchad=Used

"They" reckon that an ev should last half a million miles so the one above on 86,000 is almost new Just need to ask about batteries...

For those of us who can't / won't afford a Tesla, it's an interesting thing to consider.

 

[AES]

Yes, I HAVE noticed that! And "right pleased" I am to do so.

The way the thread has developed there was plenty of "scope" for it to turn into a personalised mud slinging match but no sign of that. Great. Wonder if it's got anything at all to do with the notable absence of the Forum-designated "Resident Troll"????????

The research done by Droogs is very interesting. I wonder if those youngsters (can't all be "youngsters, surely?) who see no need/want for a car will feel the same when, as already mentioned above, they move some distance away from, say, a local bus route?

I've lived in "rural England" (yup, in the SE) when the local bus "service" consisted of 4 busses a day. No idea what it would be like these days up in rural Scotland, say.

And, just a perhaps extreme example, myself. I now live within 5 minutes of the local bus service which is EXCELLENT - 20 minutes between buses mornings, middays, and evenings, and hourly rest of the time, even Sundays. But I still use my car. Why? My back means that I'd anyway rather carry 10 half-full shopping bags than 5 full ones - in reality though our weekly shop is about 6 bags usually. Although a short journey to/from the bus stop it's up a BIG hill on the way back (WITH the shopping!) and frankly, I just can't do it, in 1 go, even with 6 half-full bags. And just don't even THINK about taxis at the price they are here!

OK, I'm an OAP, but I suggest that within any population there's more people than you think with "disabilities" of some sort - NOT only just "the wrinklys" either! AND many "modernised" town centres in UK seem to be pedestrian-only too now (no busses), again making problems for the "disabled", many of whom, even with powered wheelchairs, let alone those with only walking frames (no, I haven't descended so low!) have at least some difficulties and often seem to need friends/relatives WITH cars to help them.

 

[RogerS]

.....But I still use my car. Why? My back means that I'd anyway rather carry 10 half-full shopping bags than 5 full ones - in reality though our weekly shop is about 6 bags usually. .....

You use your car ? :shock: That's so.o.o 1980's. Don't they have a little man-in-a-van to deliver it to your door for you ? :wink: :lol:

 

[AES]

Yes, "they" do Roger, but as ever here, "it costs"!

And NO, I haven't done the sums, but what about when I want to go and visit "my girlfriend" and her husband up in NW Germany? 3 different trains, and because he and I are both into "woodfiddling", with a load of tools in my bags too? No thanks mate! All fits comfortably in my little station wagon, AND I can stop for a fag break and a drink (or swap drivers with my wife) anytime & anywhere I like!

"Uber"???=? What's that then? Would I need a smart phone for that? How millienium newby that is! (I haven't got a smart phone - never been the same since I stopped working and Blackberry went all silly)!

Seriously though, Droogs' little bit of "market research" really was illuminating. I wonder how representative it really is (no disrespect intended Droogs)

 

[beech1948]

What I want to know is why are electric vehicles so bloody expensive. Less parts, less complex motors, relatively simple software. Why so expensive and why do we just accept that.

I have yet to buy an EV but already feel ripped off.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

A little bit more research - 83% of the UK population (66m) apparently live in urban areas. No definition of an urban area but based upon a city/town analysis:

- 30% (19.5m) live in areas with a population over 250,000
- 45% (29.8m) live in areas with a population over 100,000
- 59% (39.0m) live in areas with a population over 50,000

So most of us live in towns and cities where local transport may be all that is required for day to day living - jobs, retail, entertainment, healthcare, education. Rural dwellers in less densely populated parts of the country will hang on to their ICEs longest - but the direction of travel seems clear.

The older f*rts (of which I am one) on this forum grew up in an age where car ownership allowed us to disconnect job location from home, friends, and family. Commuting by car became the accepted norm. We often find it difficult to give up behaviours we've grown into over the last 40+ years - although unlike most of the young we may have the financial capacity to indulge ourselves.

But objectively, commuting is a huge waste of time, money and energy. The young probably have it right for the future - walk, cycle, public transport to work and other infrastructure. If autonomous vehicles are on the horizon an app based call service will mean transport on demand if needed (a bit like Uber!)

 

[Lons]

Now I think I could save up to £3,000 a year on fuel costs, so if I bought a second hand EV for £5,000, it would only have to survive two years before it had paid for itself.

You're presumably a high mileage user TM whereas I'm no more than 7K pa.

Excluding all the other costs / savings you've quoted only fuel so.....
At todays price local to me petrol is £1.18 and diesel £1.21 per litre, so in round figures at say £1.20 litre ( £5.50 gal ) £3000 = 545 galls of fuel which at a fairly frugal 35 mpg equates to a mileage in excess of 19000 pa. I get low 40s from my heavy awd diesel car which would be more like 22000 miles pa.
And if you add in cost per mile of using the EV then that makes the mileage comparison much worse, or have I miscalculated?

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Now I think I could save up to £3,000 a year on fuel costs, so if I bought a second hand EV for £5,000, it would only have to survive two years before it had paid for itself.

You're presumably a high mileage user TM whereas I'm no more than 7K pa.

Excluding all the other costs / savings you've quoted only fuel so.....
At todays price local to me petrol is £1.18 and diesel £1.21 per litre, so in round figures at say £1.20 litre ( £5.50 gal ) £3000 = 545 galls of fuel which at a fairly frugal 35 mpg equates to a mileage in excess of 19000 pa. I get low 40s from my heavy awd diesel car which would be more like 22000 miles pa.
And if you add in cost per mile of using the EV then that makes the mileage comparison much worse, or have I miscalculated?

I don't do much mileage, but it's a 4x4 pickup, and I pay €1.45 a litre for diesel..also lots of low ratio off road work, which doesn't help at all.

 

[Trevanion]

However there does definitely seem to be a marked difference between those roughly over mid-thirties and those below as to that view. Those below that age are it appear consigned to the fact that they will not be able to afford to buy a house until they are much older that we were before they can afford to, unless they inherit. They are also a generation who have grown up knowing nothing about the benefits of saving in general as there has been not real return rate or encouragement to do so. They have in general been enticed with easy credit and low interest rates to spend. It is really alarming how little in savings the average person actually has. They are a generation that has not had to go without or had to save up to get stuff and are bombarded with the ideas that they have inalienable rights that seems to include the right to have whatever they want without necessarily earning it (not a dig or their fault). They are the true consumerist society and everyone wants to be part of it, especially those in the poorer parts of the world as they gain more education and exposure to what the 1st world has to offer.

They are therefore more inclined to use all their income as disposable and not allocate any aside at all. They are for the most part easily to describe as technology junkies and almost fall over themselves to get the latest and greatest tech.

Hopefully without diverging too far from the original subject, but I'd like to make a comment

I'm a relatively "youngun" I suppose so I can talk from a first-hand position. It annoys me how few people my age are "moneywise" so to speak and have no real perception of what money is actually worth, I was talking with quite a good friend the other day who was moaning about never having any money and always being overdrawn despite earning quite a bit more than myself every week, whilst munching down on a £8 baguette, his second of the day of which he had two every working day instead of a packed lunch, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out £16 x 5 = £80 per week on baguettes which didn't include drinks! I know I spend less than £10 per week on my whole packed lunch.

The weekend rolls around, he's the first man at the bar and usually the last one to leave and I wouldn't be surprised most weekends he ends up with £100 pineappled down the toilet by the time he's bought himself and everyone else in the pub drinks. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a drink every now and then but it's an expensive hobby, even by woodworking standards :shock:. So now he's down roughly £180 from his £450 a week pay packet which means he has about £270 to spend on everything else like rent, more food and drink, phone contract, fuel for commuting, extravagant spends, etc... which won't leave any room for being cash neutral, let alone having savings.

And that person isn't the only example I know of, I know plenty that just CAN NOT handle their money and will squander it when really you need to make your money whilst you're young otherwise you'll never be moving forward later on. To be honest, it's usually these kinds of people that will still be moaning later on in life "I wish I had it as easy as you have had it". Not to brag, in my current circumstances I can stash away £200 a week fairly easily, which is what I'm doing since I actually want to try and get a house before I'm 25, if possible. I suspect it's going to be FAR easier to do now when I've got basically nothing holding me back rather than at 30 with loads of commitments, which seems to be the opposite opinion to everyone my age I talk to.

 

[Lons]

Now I think I could save up to £3,000 a year on fuel costs, so if I bought a second hand EV for £5,000, it would only have to survive two years before it had paid for itself.

You're presumably a high mileage user TM whereas I'm no more than 7K pa.

Excluding all the other costs / savings you've quoted only fuel so.....
At todays price local to me petrol is £1.18 and diesel £1.21 per litre, so in round figures at say £1.20 litre ( £5.50 gal ) £3000 = 545 galls of fuel which at a fairly frugal 35 mpg equates to a mileage in excess of 19000 pa. I get low 40s from my heavy awd diesel car which would be more like 22000 miles pa.
And if you add in cost per mile of using the EV then that makes the mileage comparison much worse, or have I miscalculated?

I don't do much mileage, but it's a 4x4 pickup, and I pay €1.45 a litre for diesel..also lots of low ratio off road work, which doesn't help at all.

Can you check your calcs TN as I honestly can't see how it's possible to make a £3000 saving on fuel alone at low mileage even at that much a litre and how are you going to make an EV work in an off road low ratio environment?

I've had a couple of glasses of the red liquid tonight so my brain's a bit fuzzy at the mo. :lol:

 

[Lons]

Good for you Trevanion you've got your head screwed on the right way round, I see the same as you within my extended family both young and old though luckily my 2 kids did what you're doing and now have their own homes.

It is hard now to get on the housing ladder but those who won't give up their expensive habits won't ever get on at all and will be the green eyed moaners later in life. What they don't seem to grasp is that most of us they're envious of didn't go out drinking, smoking and wasting money as we had a mortgage and kids to pay for and the older generation I come from tended to save for what they needed rather than get into debt.

 

[RogerS]

A little bit more research - 83% of the UK population (66m) apparently live in urban areas. No definition of an urban area but based upon a city/town analysis:

- 30% (19.5m) live in areas with a population over 250,000
- 45% (29.8m) live in areas with a population over 100,000
- 59% (39.0m) live in areas with a population over 50,000

So most of us live in towns and cities where local transport may be all that is required for day to day living - jobs, retail, entertainment, healthcare, education.

Do you have a source for that statement, Terry, as I think it is probably flawed or biased. I looked at a few lists out of curiosity and it quotes districts more rather than actual towns. So if that is their criteria then the argument is flawed. For example, Malvern Hills district is shown as having a population of 78,000 but sure as hell, the area covered is vast and without any sensible public (I assume you meant that when you said local ?) transport.

People still drive 10 miles or more to get to work.

But objectively, commuting is a huge waste of time, money and energy.

Agreed but necessary unless you can work from home.

The young probably have it right for the future - walk, cycle, public transport to work and other infrastructure.

That's because they live in towns and cities an can. It's called public transport ! Something that doesn't exist outside the major conurbations.

If autonomous vehicles are on the horizon an app based call service will mean transport on demand if needed (a bit like Uber!)

But wouldn't life be so boring ?

 

[RogerS]

Good for you Trevanion you've got your head screwed on the right way round, I see the same as you within my extended family both young and old though luckily my 2 kids did what you're doing and now have their own homes.

It is hard now to get on the housing ladder but those who won't give up their expensive habits won't ever get on at all and will be the green eyed moaners later in life. What they don't seem to grasp is that most of us they're envious of didn't go out drinking, smoking and wasting money as we had a mortgage and kids to pay for and the older generation I come from tended to save for what they needed rather than get into debt.

+1

And they forget interest rates of 17% !